Hello, got caught by surprise by the launch of the Fairphone 3. It is clear that their success of pushing the state of the art in the area of consumer mobile phones is based on Free Software (like Android).
The details are interesting, as there can always be something improved. Does somebody have alreadys looked at the new model from the Free Software side?
Having 10 out of 10 repairability score from iFixit is very good, they are keeping their high standards from FP2. https://www.fairphone.com/en/2019/09/17/ifixit-repairability/
My experiences: * I know a few persons owning and running FP1 for years, very reliably, almost 6 years. When the battery could not officially produced anymore (understandable), the community found a replacement. Some still run the FP1. Problem: the chipset choice made it hard to have a better software support and Android 4.4 is dropping out of support by important apps. * The two FP2 models I saw in vicinity had small hardware issues with touch an rebooting, it was less a workable "mainstream" phone than others. The modular approach was cool, though. I read that root and other "ROM"s were possible. * The FP3 announcement policy did not work for me. On of the persons with the FP1 needed a replacement (because of software and battery life) and a used phone with lineagesOSmicrog was bought, because the state of the FP3 was unclear in the first half of this year.
I've heard that a sailfish OS port to FP3 is likely. :) That is also a mobile phone operating system which (limited) success is based on Free Software a lot.
What are your experiences? What is the best argument you could make for something if you wanted to raise the chance of this person buying an FP3?
Best Regards, Bernhard
On 9/23/19 10:05 AM, Bernhard E. Reiter wrote:
What are your experiences? What is the best argument you could make for something if you wanted to raise the chance of this person buying an FP3?
I know, without having consulted the announcement, that I personally will be very interested in buying it if they will ship with AOSP and no proprietary apps like the Fairphone 1 instead of with Play Store pre-installed and impossible to remove like the Fairphone 2.
I'd really like a state of the art phone that comes pre-installed with free software. I was very pleased with the FP1 for this reason.
Best Carsten
Hi Bernhard,
I have a Fairphone 2 since 10 month. It comes with Android 6 and Google but I could flash easily Fairphone OpenOS, Android 7 without Google. I also use a Galaxy S3 GT-I9300 with Replicant. Would be cool if we could have Replicant on the Fairphone 2/3. :-)
The update situation in the FP2 with Fairphone OpenOS is really good. Last updates are from 01.09.2019. The battery could be better but it's okay and without Google services the phone can run ~1.5 days.
I haven't tested UBPorts or SailfishOS on the FP2 but I bet they will port it to the FP3, too. I am happy with Android and Fairphone OpenOS and F-Droid store. I would buy a FP3 but I want to use my FP2 as long as possible for reasons of sustainability.
Best Christian
Am 23. September 2019 10:05:52 MESZ schrieb "Bernhard E. Reiter" bernhard@fsfe.org:
Hello, got caught by surprise by the launch of the Fairphone 3. It is clear that their success of pushing the state of the art in the area of consumer mobile phones is based on Free Software (like Android).
The details are interesting, as there can always be something improved. Does somebody have alreadys looked at the new model from the Free Software side?
Having 10 out of 10 repairability score from iFixit is very good, they are keeping their high standards from FP2. https://www.fairphone.com/en/2019/09/17/ifixit-repairability/
My experiences:
- I know a few persons owning and running FP1 for years, very reliably,
almost 6 years. When the battery could not officially produced anymore (understandable), the community found a replacement. Some still run the FP1. Problem: the chipset choice made it hard to have a better software support and Android 4.4 is dropping out of support by important apps.
- The two FP2 models I saw in vicinity had small hardware issues with
touch an rebooting, it was less a workable "mainstream" phone than others. The modular approach was cool, though. I read that root and other "ROM"s were possible.
- The FP3 announcement policy did not work for me. On of the persons
with the FP1 needed a replacement (because of software and battery life) and a used phone with lineagesOSmicrog was bought, because the state of the FP3 was unclear in the first half of this year.
I've heard that a sailfish OS port to FP3 is likely. :) That is also a mobile phone operating system which (limited) success is based on Free Software a lot.
What are your experiences? What is the best argument you could make for something if you wanted to raise the chance of this person buying an FP3?
Best Regards, Bernhard
On 9/24/19 6:14 PM, Christian Imhorst wrote:
I have a Fairphone 2 since 10 month. It comes with Android 6 and Google but I could flash easily Fairphone OpenOS, Android 7 without Google. I also use a Galaxy S3 GT-I9300 with Replicant. Would be cool if we could have Replicant on the Fairphone 2/3. :-)
Today, inspired by this discussion, I send the following question to Fairphone support:
"I'm interested in buying a Fairphone 3, but I'm not interested in getting proprietary Android.
Is it possible to have the Fairphone 3 shipped with AOSP as the Fairphone 1, with no Google apps or Play Store? I'd VERY MUCH prefer it that way. I know it's possible to flash it with AOSP myself, but I don't find that solution satisfactory."
I hope they'll answer that it *is* possible, but let's see.
Best Carsten
On Wednesday 25. September 2019 15.17.24 Carsten Agger wrote:
Today, inspired by this discussion, I send the following question to Fairphone support:
"I'm interested in buying a Fairphone 3, but I'm not interested in getting proprietary Android.
Is it possible to have the Fairphone 3 shipped with AOSP as the Fairphone 1, with no Google apps or Play Store? I'd VERY MUCH prefer it that way. I know it's possible to flash it with AOSP myself, but I don't find that solution satisfactory."
I hope they'll answer that it *is* possible, but let's see.
Certainly, Fairphone are improving on multiple fronts, so it isn't quite like the completely narrow focus one tends to see in activism (the FSFE included) where you get to uphold some of your ethical concerns and compromise on everything else.
A few days ago, I wrote about sustainable phones and mentioned the Fairphone 3 because it appeared in a mainstream review:
http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/community/2019-September/002034.html
Personally, I feel that if people cooperated more, we wouldn't have to compromise on our ethics at all, but then this wouldn't let people realise their dream of being the big winner who did it all: the "we got this" mentality that usually results in unmet expectations and dissatisfaction (and a bunch of other people squaring up to show that they know better, inevitably making exactly the same mistakes).
On a more constructive note, the Tinkerphones discussion very quickly brought up the topic of the German banking sector and restrictive practices on hardware that can be used to access banking services:
http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/community/2019-September/002035.html
I wonder if there has been any concern expressed in FSFE circles about that.
Paul
Am Mittwoch 25 September 2019 16:07:36 schrieb Paul Boddie:
On Wednesday 25. September 2019 15.17.24 Carsten Agger wrote:
I send the following question to Fairphone support: "I'm interested in buying a Fairphone 3, but I'm not interested in
Thanks for requesting this, I think it is helpful if potential customers voice their preferences for Free Software.
Certainly, Fairphone are improving on multiple fronts,
Yes, they do. And they make a real-world usable phone with as much ethics as they can to stay in a price that people would like to pay for it.
One drawback: https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-us/articles/360032971751-Operating-syste... * "rooting the Fairphone 3 will void the warranty" linking to https://www.fairphone.com/en/legal/fairphone-3-warranty/#4warrantyexclusions "4.2 The Fairphone Warranty does not cover damage resulting from:" " i. The Product has been rooted or unlocked."
so their brief version is wrong, as their warranty does only not cover damage from rooting und unlocking, but does not make it void against other damage. It would probably be illegal to exclude a warranty, see https://fsfe.org/freesoftware/legal/flashingdevices.en.html FSFE works with consumer protection agencies to increase their understanding of Free Software, which is good in the long term.
so it isn't quite like the completely narrow focus one tends to see in activism (the FSFE included) where you get to uphold some of your ethical concerns and compromise on everything else.
FSFE's actions are mid and long term. The main task is to make people understand Free Software and the relation of software to society and their life so they can make better choices. FSFE's doings proof that wide, long term vision and actions that are in line with it.
https://fsfe.org/campaigns/pdfreaders/pdfreaders.en.html <- FS PDF readers https://fsfe.org/campaigns/android/ <- Free Your Android
A few days ago, I wrote about sustainable phones and mentioned the Fairphone 3 because it appeared in a mainstream review:
http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/community/2019-September/002034.html
Cool to see a favourable mainstream review https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/18/fairphone-3-review-ethica...
"What if you could buy a phone that will last five years, can be easily repaired and is made as ethically as possible? That’s the aim of the latest Fairphone 3 – and on many counts it succeeds."
Personally, I feel that if people cooperated more, we wouldn't have to compromise on our ethics at all,
This means convincing more people, for which they first must know the arguments and alternatives. This is why promoting open standards is so important, because they allow people to judge faster how interoperable their device/software combination is and it allows smaller vendors to make better offers.
https://fsfe.org/activities/os/def.en.html
the German banking sector and restrictive practices on hardware that can be used to access banking services:
http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/community/2019-September/002035.html
I wonder if there has been any concern expressed in FSFE circles about that.
Yes, for example see https://lists.fsfe.org/pipermail/fsfe-de/2019-September/010893.html
Note that all banks I know also allow independent devices for a second factor, so there is no de-facto dependency on a modern "smartphone". The device is more secure, too.
And it is a European thing with the psd2 requirements, banks are conservative and they want to keep their unique position in business life, so they are only reluctantly implementing improvements and struggle with it: https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/zahlungsverkehr-neues-psd2-verfahren-verwirrt...
Overall it is progress and chance for Free Software as more software has to get access to the banking data of customers. And standards will emerge over time, because of customers demands (from their fintec startups promisses.
;))
Regards, Bernhard
On 9/26/19 9:50 AM, Bernhard E. Reiter wrote:
Am Mittwoch 25 September 2019 16:07:36 schrieb Paul Boddie:
On Wednesday 25. September 2019 15.17.24 Carsten Agger wrote:
I send the following question to Fairphone support: "I'm interested in buying a Fairphone 3, but I'm not interested in
Thanks for requesting this, I think it is helpful if potential customers voice their preferences for Free Software.
I got this response from Fairphone:
"For Fairphone 2, we offered also Fairphone Open https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-us/articles/360032971751, an OS that does not have Google services pre-installed.
*We are currently investigating the possibility of bringing back FP Open on Fairphone 3.*
It is still possible to install alternative operating systems on our Fairphone 3 (advanced users can unlock the bootloader - but this voids the warranty https://www.fairphone.com/en/legal/fairphone-3-warranty/!), however, *we do not offer support for any different OS*."
The "Fairphone Open" option looks interesting, but the thing about voiding the warranty if you unlock the bootloader is /not good enough/.
It is, on the other hand, completely understandable that they can't offer support for other OS's.
Am Dienstag 01 Oktober 2019 11:35:40 schrieb Carsten Agger:
I got this response from Fairphone:
*We are currently investigating the possibility of bringing back FP Open on Fairphone 3.*
Cool, thanks for having asked this. (The more people are seriously interested and let them know, the higher the chances.)
It is still possible to install alternative operating systems on our Fairphone 3 (advanced users can unlock the bootloader - but this voids the warranty https://www.fairphone.com/en/legal/fairphone-3-warranty/!)
the thing about voiding the warranty if you unlock the bootloader is /not good enough/.
And the short statement is missleading, as I wrote on the 26th https://lists.fsfe.org/pipermail/discussion/2019-September/012907.html the warranty for the hardware must still be there.
Regards, Bernhard
Hi all,
On 23.09.19 10:05, Bernhard E. Reiter wrote:
I've heard that a sailfish OS port to FP3 is likely. :) That is also a mobile phone operating system which (limited) success is based on Free Software a lot.
Sailfish is not completely Free Software:
https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Open_Source
I know purism pays some developers to integrate a full Gnome platform with a custom shell (phosh). To my humble knowledge this seems to be the most active fully free software stack right now (other than AOSP) which can be implemented on real hardware phones.
https://developer.puri.sm/Librem5/Software_Reference.html
Best wishes Michael
Hi Michael,
Am Mittwoch 25 September 2019 10:04:38 schrieb Michael Kesper:
On 23.09.19 10:05, Bernhard E. Reiter wrote:
That is also a mobile phone operating system which (limited) success is based on Free Software a lot.
Sailfish is not completely Free Software:
yes, just like 99.9% of real-world Android running devices. Some parts like the oFono Sailfish seems to be more Free Software than what Android does, but I am not sure.
I know purism pays some developers to integrate a full Gnome platform with a custom shell (phosh). To my humble knowledge this seems to be the most active fully free software stack right now (other than AOSP) which can be implemented on real hardware phones.
But there are no real world phones (so far) and Purism seems to re-implement a lot of components, which is a risk. I hope they succeed (and participated in their fundraiser), but it is not a real life option yet.
Regards, Bernhard
On Wed Sep 25 08:04:38 UTC 2019, Michael Kesper wrote:
I know purism pays some developers to integrate a full Gnome platform with a custom shell (phosh).
Disclosure: I'm working on writing documentation for Purism at the moment. Disclaimer: I'm speaking for myself in this message.
To my humble knowledge this seems to be the most active fully free software stack right now (other than AOSP) which can be implemented on real hardware phones.
It looks like one or two things are out of date in that diagram. I'm also reminded that the Software Reference section of the documentation is woefully incomplete. There are only so many hours in the day.
Personally, I wish that there could have been a way to bring the most active (or at least most prominent) efforts together to make the ideal phone stack, or at least to cherry-pick some parts of different stacks to make a more comprehensive phone environment. It seems a waste not to use existing components that have seen extensive testing and use.
Alongside the effort to create GNOME-based stack, I have been impressed by the activity in the Plasma Mobile community to get that working on the Librem 5 hardware, as well as on other development systems. The UBports developers have also been quick to get their stack running on that hardware. I wasn't really aware of the UBports development scene, and was surprised at how active it is - they really seem to try and foster a sense of community around the system.
The Fairphone 3 is a welcome development, as I noted in the FSFE discourse:
https://community.fsfe.org/t/recommended-android-phones/280/6
It would be interesting to see Replicant running on it, and on the Librem 5, of course.
David
Hi Bernhard,
"Bernhard E. Reiter" bernhard@fsfe.org writes:
What are your experiences?
I had a terrible experience with the FP2 (broken case, terrible battery life, random restarts, promised upgrade took forever) and so I switched to a used phone. As long as the damand on the market for used phones is not large enough to encourage people buying new phones, that is a viable alternative.
Happy hacking! Florian