Hi,
Does a code snippet have any legal definition or meaning? I ask because when working on compliance with a company they're told that code snippets implicitly contain the license they were under originally. This makes sense of course, you cannot copy something from a GPL'd file and then claim it is your copyright, that seems unfair. But what if separately one has written the exact same function. Given that in many cases there are only a few specific ways to do things, this might not be that far-fetched.
Here's my strawman:
In this GNU file http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/hurd/glibc.git/tree/io/access.c there is code that tests the properties of a given file for access. This is a small C source code file of about 40 lines, nearly half of which is a license header. What if one saw these lines;
{ if (file == NULL || (type & ~(R_OK|W_OK|X_OK|F_OK)) != 0) { __set_errno (EINVAL); return -1; }
__set_errno (ENOSYS); return -1; }
in a proprietary file somewhere. It is half of the code from the access.c file, but arguably likely the only way to do this particular task. Yes, you can rearrange the the R_OK (read okay) and W_OK (write okay) etc, but this is merely cosmetic, the functionality remains the same.
To me, this mere snippet lacks the originality test of copyright, but cutting and pasting it is considered presumably to be a copyright violation and requires use under the GPL since the original code is under the GPL.
Is this how one treats "snippets"? Are they recognized as a type of enforceable copyrighted unit?
Many thanks,
Jeremiah
Looks like it's below threshold. So it's nothing. If it was above threshold, it would have been protected, nothing exists halfway.
Where the line is placed is an entirely different matter. The degree of freedom, complexity and length of the code (others?) are the metrics. But see in the Google / Oracle case, that was argued endlessly and the judge had to learn programming to solve the puzzle.
Carlo
PS good first post for mentors, methinks
On 24 May 2016, Jeremiah Foster jeremiah.foster@pelagicore.com wrote:
Hi,
Does a code snippet have any legal definition or meaning? I ask because when working on compliance with a company they're told that code snippets implicitly contain the license they were under originally. This makes sense of course, you cannot copy something from a GPL'd file and then claim it is your copyright, that seems unfair. But what if separately one has written the exact same function. Given that in many cases there are only a few specific ways to do things, this might not be that far-fetched.
Here's my strawman:
In this GNU file http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/hurd/glibc.git/tree/io/access.c there is code that tests the properties of a given file for access. This is a small C source code file of about 40 lines, nearly half of which is a license header. What if one saw these lines;
{ if (file == NULL || (type & ~(R_OK|W_OK|X_OK|F_OK)) != 0) { __set_errno (EINVAL); return -1; }
__set_errno (ENOSYS); return -1; }
in a proprietary file somewhere. It is half of the code from the access.c file, but arguably likely the only way to do this particular task. Yes, you can rearrange the the R_OK (read okay) and W_OK (write okay) etc, but this is merely cosmetic, the functionality remains the same.
To me, this mere snippet lacks the originality test of copyright, but cutting and pasting it is considered presumably to be a copyright violation and requires use under the GPL since the original code is under the GPL.
Is this how one treats "snippets"? Are they recognized as a type of enforceable copyrighted unit?
Many thanks,
Jeremiah
Hold on. Regardless of the interest of the question, Mentors.ln is not a new place to ask for legal advice (especially someone like Jeremiah who i would certainly not qualify as newbie, if he is the jeremiah i am thinking of...). This type of question is more apt for the list as a whole (afaik) or their lawyer in their jutisdiction (sorry to take a harder line on this). Of course, we can answer, to promote the new forum... and I think i concur with KP (the question would probably be jurisdiction specific) ..., but just wanted to raise a question of order .... I should probably change the subject line for internal discussion, but my idea of mentors.ln is a place to get newbies (excuse the expression) up to speed on Foss licencing, not oldbies with copyright questions.
Malcolm, de mi dispositivo movil/cellphone <div> </div><div> </div><!-- originalMessage --><div>-------- Mensaje original --------</div><div>De: Carlo Piana carlo@piana.eu </div><div>Fecha: 24/5/16 14:39 (GMT+01:00) </div><div>Para: Jeremiah Foster jeremiah.foster@pelagicore.com, mentors.ln@lists.fsfe.org </div><div>Asunto: Re: [Mentors of the Legal Network] What is a code "snippet" and how is it licensed? </div><div> </div>Looks like it's below threshold. So it's nothing. If it was above threshold, it would have been protected, nothing exists halfway.
Where the line is placed is an entirely different matter. The degree of freedom, complexity and length of the code (others?) are the metrics. But see in the Google / Oracle case, that was argued endlessly and the judge had to learn programming to solve the puzzle.
Carlo
PS good first post for mentors, methinks
On 24 May 2016, Jeremiah Foster jeremiah.foster@pelagicore.com wrote:
Hi,
Does a code snippet have any legal definition or meaning? I ask because when working on compliance with a company they're told that code snippets implicitly contain the license they were under originally. This makes sense of course, you cannot copy something from a GPL'd file and then claim it is your copyright, that seems unfair. But what if separately one has written the exact same function. Given that in many cases there are only a few specific ways to do things, this might not be that far-fetched.
Here's my strawman:
In this GNU file http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/hurd/glibc.git/tree/io/access.c there is code that tests the properties of a given file for access. This is a small C source code file of about 40 lines, nearly half of which is a license header. What if one saw these lines;
{ if (file == NULL || (type & ~(R_OK|W_OK|X_OK|F_OK)) != 0) { __set_errno (EINVAL); return -1; }
__set_errno (ENOSYS); return -1; }
in a proprietary file somewhere. It is half of the code from the access.c file, but arguably likely the only way to do this particular task. Yes, you can rearrange the the R_OK (read okay) and W_OK (write okay) etc, but this is merely cosmetic, the functionality remains the same.
To me, this mere snippet lacks the originality test of copyright, but cutting and pasting it is considered presumably to be a copyright violation and requires use under the GPL since the original code is under the GPL.
Is this how one treats "snippets"? Are they recognized as a type of enforceable copyrighted unit?
Many thanks,
Jeremiah
_______________________________________________ Mentors.LN mailing list Mentors.LN@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/mentors.ln
You certainly have a point here. Per se it seemed a good question, but indeed there is some risk, and questions should be more Foss related.
Carlo
On 24 May 2016, Malcolm Bain malcolm.bain@id-lawpartners.com wrote:
Hold on. Regardless of the interest of the question, Mentors.ln is not a new place to ask for legal advice (especially someone like Jeremiah who i would certainly not qualify as newbie, if he is the jeremiah i am thinking of...). This type of question is more apt for the list as a whole (afaik) or their lawyer in their jutisdiction (sorry to take a harder line on this). Of course, we can answer, to promote the new forum... and I think i concur with KP (the question would probably be jurisdiction specific) ..., but just wanted to raise a question of order .... I should probably change the subject line for internal discussion, but my idea of mentors.ln is a place to get newbies (excuse the expression) up to speed on Foss licencing, not oldbies with copyright questions.
Malcolm, de mi dispositivo movil/cellphone <div>
</div><div> </div><!-- originalMessage --><div>-------- Mensaje original --------</div><div>De: Carlo Piana <carlo@piana.eu> </div><div>Fecha: 24/5/16 14:39 (GMT+01:00) </div><div>Para: Jeremiah Foster <jeremiah.foster@pelagicore.com>, mentors.ln@lists.fsfe.org </div><div>Asunto: Re: [Mentors of the Legal Network] What is a code "snippet" and how is it licensed? </div><div> </div>Looks like it's below threshold. So it's nothing. If it was above threshold, it would have been protected, nothing exists halfway.
Where the line is placed is an entirely different matter. The degree of freedom, complexity and length of the code (others?) are the metrics. But see in the Google / Oracle case, that was argued endlessly and the judge had to learn programming to solve the puzzle.
Carlo
PS good first post for mentors, methinks
On 24 May 2016, Jeremiah Foster jeremiah.foster@pelagicore.com wrote:
Hi,
Does a code snippet have any legal definition or meaning? I ask
because
when working on compliance with a company they're told that code snippets implicitly contain the license they were under originally. This makes sense of course, you cannot copy something from a GPL'd file and then claim it is your copyright, that seems unfair. But what if separately one has written the exact same function. Given that in many cases there are only a few specific ways to do things, this might not be that far-fetched.
Here's my strawman:
In this GNU file http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/hurd/glibc.git/tree/io/access.c there is code that tests the properties of a given file for access. This is a small C source code file of about 40 lines, nearly half of which is a
license
header. What if one saw these lines;
{ if (file == NULL || (type & ~(R_OK|W_OK|X_OK|F_OK)) != 0) { __set_errno (EINVAL); return -1; }
__set_errno (ENOSYS); return -1; }
in a proprietary file somewhere. It is half of the code from the access.c file, but arguably likely the only way to do this particular task.
Yes,
you can rearrange the the R_OK (read okay) and W_OK (write okay) etc, but this is merely cosmetic, the functionality remains the same.
To me, this mere snippet lacks the originality test of copyright, but cutting and pasting it is considered presumably to be a copyright violation and requires use under the GPL since the original code is under the GPL.
Is this how one treats "snippets"? Are they recognized as a type of enforceable copyrighted unit?
Many thanks,
Jeremiah
Mentors.LN mailing list Mentors.LN@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/mentors.ln
Regardless of the interest of the question, Mentors.ln is not a new place to ask for legal advice (especially someone like Jeremiah [...]
Full ack.
Thanks malcolm. According to the invitation sent today, I would have directed Jeremiah to post it publicly, with a "you are not a novice" remark added.
Now, I have to ask Carlo for help. Will he refuse because I disagreed or will he feel bound to help so to show he didn't take this personally? Let me try, but tomorrow.
On 24 May 2016, Alessandro Rubini rubini@gnudd.com wrote:
Regardless of the interest of the question, Mentors.ln is not a new place to ask for legal advice (especially someone like Jeremiah [...]
Full ack.
Thanks malcolm. According to the invitation sent today, I would have directed Jeremiah to post it publicly, with a "you are not a novice" remark added.
Now, I have to ask Carlo for help. Will he refuse because I disagreed or will he feel bound to help so to show he didn't take this personally? Let me try, but tomorrow.
Not at all, the fact that I have hastily replied does not strike me as overruling this possibility.
Of course, once the cat is out of the bag, it's difficult to put it back, but on the other hand, that was a quick question, I felt it was too low level and obvious to deserve discussion in front of the general audience. I would myself have restrained a lot more, and would have been perhaps more elaborate if the question was for that forum. That was what I intended with it was a good question for mentoring, I meant this would have been too basic to disrupt the time of many busy lawyers who have to bother sending it to the trashbin.
On the other hand, Malcolm is right, Jeremiah should know better, and all in all, this was not a specific FOSS question, rather a fundamental copyright one, anybody in this list is supposed to know already, lawyer or non lawyer. The LN is a specialists' forum, not an educational one, that is for mentors. But mentors is for FOSS specifics.
Therefore, the choice being "this belongs here" and "this belongs nowhere here", I tend to think the exit point is not "this is for LN" but "sorry, this is the sort of non-FOSS specific that absent a volunteer [like Carlo] nobody should take, no offence meant".
my two cents, of course.
Carlo
Yeah - to sum up and top post, it would be good to get an internal balanced view among the mentor team as to what we consider "appropriate" for the mentor list, and what we have the band width for. [I get the same thing when I mentor start-ups: where is the line between mentoring and providing specific legal advice? And it is not just "what you would charge fees for", as there is quite a lot of basic stuff in mentoring that I would/could charge fees for if I weren't a mentor]
Like Carlo, I don't mind responding to any copyright/FOSS related question, if I have time, so we don't necessarily need to "reject" questions off hand just because they are off-mentoring-topic. It would be good (maybe in a couple of days, whatever) to check the main LN list have understood what the mentor list is for ("introducing newbies to FOSS" and not giving legal advice...) and also it is not a mentors list for all on the LN as the whole concept of "mentor" is usually for "startups", in this case, newbies.
What I am not keen to do is to respond to copyright or even FOSS questions from old hands (who may be trying to pull a fast one and get legal advice). I'm not saying Jeremiah did this, just that we don't want to set too much precedents so that we later get a complaint that "you answered X question, why won't you answer Y question now?" (assuming both X and Y off-mentoring-topic).
But Carlo is right (when is he not?) - there are questions that could fairly easily be answered, that are not for the full list of mainly busy lawyers - so they fall in the cracks between "appropriate for newbies" and "appropriate for general discussion, moved onto the main list".
Maybe, if we have the bandwidth, we could still answer these "fall in the cracks" questions, but prequel the answer with "This is not really what the mentoring list of for, as the list is for supporting newcomers to FOSS legal issues, but as you've asked, one answer could be...". And defaulting what Carlo puts below, if there is no time to answer.
malcolm
-----Mensaje original----- De: mentors.ln-bounces@lists.fsfe.org [mailto:mentors.ln- bounces@lists.fsfe.org] En nombre de Carlo Piana Enviado el: martes, 24 de mayo de 2016 17:29 Para: Alessandro Rubini; mentors.ln@lists.fsfe.org Asunto: Re: [Mentors of the Legal Network] What is a code "snippet" and howis it licensed?
On 24 May 2016, Alessandro Rubini rubini@gnudd.com wrote:
Regardless of the interest of the question, Mentors.ln is not a new place to ask for legal advice (especially someone like Jeremiah [...]
Full ack.
Thanks malcolm. According to the invitation sent today, I would have directed Jeremiah to post it publicly, with a "you are not a novice" remark added.
Now, I have to ask Carlo for help. Will he refuse because I disagreed or will he feel bound to help so to show he didn't take this personally? Let me try, but tomorrow.
Not at all, the fact that I have hastily replied does not strike me as overruling this possibility.
Of course, once the cat is out of the bag, it's difficult to put it
back,
but on the other hand, that was a quick question, I felt it was too low level and obvious to deserve discussion in front of the general
audience.
I would myself have restrained a lot more, and would have been perhaps more elaborate if the question was for that forum. That was what I intended with it was a good question for mentoring, I meant this would have been too basic to disrupt the time of many busy lawyers who have to bother sending it to the trashbin.
On the other hand, Malcolm is right, Jeremiah should know better, and
all
in all, this was not a specific FOSS question, rather a fundamental copyright one, anybody in this list is supposed to know already, lawyer
or
non lawyer. The LN is a specialists' forum, not an educational one, that is for mentors. But mentors is for FOSS specifics.
Therefore, the choice being "this belongs here" and "this belongs
nowhere
here", I tend to think the exit point is not "this is for LN" but
"sorry,
this is the sort of non-FOSS specific that absent a volunteer [like
Carlo]
nobody should take, no offence meant".
my two cents, of course.
Carlo
Mentors.LN mailing list Mentors.LN@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/mentors.ln
