Just a suggestion, I don't know if anyone has thought of an Irish name yet.
My Irish kinda sucks by now, so that might need significant correction and should be run by a decent Irish scholar, as it is perhaps contraversial as outlined below:
Why "Scóp-" and not "Saor-" ?
AFAIK Irish "Scóp" most closely translates as Freedom-as-in-scope-for-doing-things-you-desire-to-do.
ISTR someone telling me it was probably the origin of one sense of the English word "scope", as opposed to a later import from the English, though again you'd have to ask a language expert.
I'm pretty sure that the word "Saor" has by now become as Libre/Gratis confused as "Free" in English - though AFAIK it does / did once mean Libre as opposed to "Aisce" (Gratis).
"Scóp" thus seems pretty apt, and perhaps even more closely aligned to what the FSF mean by "Free" than either Libre or Gratis.
On 2 Nov 2003 at 1:29, David Golden wrote:
Just a suggestion, I don't know if anyone has thought of an Irish name yet.
This is an outstanding idea which I completely support as it solves all my problems. Kudos to David for thinking of it.
Cheers, Niall
On Sun 02 Nov 2003 01:59, Niall Douglas wrote:
This is an outstanding idea which I completely support as it solves all my problems. Kudos to David for thinking of it.
As I said, reasonably lightheartedly, to Niall earlier -"Now I know there's something wrong with it ;-)".
Given his expressed stance in certain respects, I would like to stress that I personally do NOT consider anything less than DFSG-Compliant to have sufficient "Scóp".
I did NOT intend to leave wiggle room to introduce nonfree stuff or anti-gpl wackiness. I will be charitable and assume by "solving his problems" Niall meant that it removed ambiguity he perceived to be introduced by common usage of "Free" and "open", not that it left such wiggle room...
IMHO the best English translation is still "Irish Free Software Organisation", and if "Free" is perceived ambiguous by some party, that's not so bad anyway, since it means one can explain the FSF philosophy when they ask for clarification...
On 2 Nov 2003 at 12:12, David Golden wrote:
I did NOT intend to leave wiggle room to introduce nonfree stuff or anti-gpl wackiness. I will be charitable and assume by "solving his problems" Niall meant that it removed ambiguity he perceived to be introduced by common usage of "Free" and "open", not that it left such wiggle room...
You are correct, I don't like people deliberately phrasing things in a deceptive fashion. As you know David, I hold there is morality in everything and especially engineering, being such a force for good that it is, should naturally attain for a high standard of morals. It's not the free software movement's fault, but "free" in English means "free of cost" first and "free of restriction" second - and *that* in my opinion means that "free software" is a misleading name.
IMHO the best English translation is still "Irish Free Software Organisation", and if "Free" is perceived ambiguous by some party, that's not so bad anyway, since it means one can explain the FSF philosophy when they ask for clarification...
If we were all in Spain right now, I'd be 100% happy with "Organisation Software Libre Irlandes" because that says what it really is.
I know that what I'm saying is being pedantic, but you must all remember that we live within a clique where the term "free software" has a meaning not equivalent to that perceived by the wider public - ie; most computer users and managers of business. Therefore to choose this term to name a lobby organisation acting in such arenas is to practice the same form of dishonesty as I have outlined above.
Now OTOH, if it's a stated goal that this organisation shall as a primary purpose be lobbying business to move to free software, you do want to keep that name as a PR mechanism. I however will then have nothing to do with it personally, though I'll continue barracking from the sidelines :)
Cheers, Niall
Hi all,
I think "Ríomhoideas" means an individual computer program. "Bogearra" would be the usual translation for "software", or "Bogearraí" in the plural.
Dé Domh, 2003-11-02 ag 01:29, scríobh David Golden:
Just a suggestion, I don't know if anyone has thought of an Irish name yet.
My Irish kinda sucks by now, so that might need significant correction and should be run by a decent Irish scholar, as it is perhaps contraversial as outlined below:
Why "Scóp-" and not "Saor-" ?
...
I'm pretty sure that "Saor" normally means "libre", and "saor in aisce" means "free of charge". Think of Saorstád Éireann (Irish Free State), for example. But "saorearra" means freeware, so the confusion is still there in Irish.
I'm not an Irish scholar but I haven't come across the adjective "scóp" before. Scope can be translated "réimse" or "scóip", but these mean something like "field (of study, etc.)".
I'd go with Cumann Saorbogearraí (or Bogearraí Saora) na hÉireann.
Regards,
David
On Sun 02 Nov 2003 12:39, David O'Callaghan wrote:
Hi all,
I think "Ríomhoideas" means an individual computer program. "Bogearra" would be the usual translation for "software", or "Bogearraí" in the plural.
I don't really like Bogearraí - has a ring of a much-too-literal translation from the english. "Oideasra" is given as the translation for "software", "Oideas" for "program" here: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaeilge/foclora/abhair/riomhaire.htm
While one may draw a distinction between "program" and "software", e.g. a collection of clipart could be "software", though perhaps most would not consider it a "program" as such, in formal terms, the image data can indeed be considered a "program" written in, say, the "language of jpeg", interpreted by the computer that displays the picture. Lispfucius Say: code is data, data is code.
I'm pretty sure that "Saor" normally means "libre", and "saor in aisce" means "free of charge". Think of Saorstád Éireann (Irish Free State), for example. But "saorearra" means freeware, so the confusion is still there in Irish.
Indeed, I'm pretty sure you're right. However, my worry over "Saor" was that in my experience, few use "saor in aisce" anymore - generations of schoolchildren dumb-translating with english-irish dictionaries have meant they use "saor" ambiguously, probably actually holding something isomorphic to the woolly english "free" in their minds.
But is Saor (which I am happy to take to mean Libre...) even the most appropriate for the sense of "Free" in the FSF, given Irish might have a third shade of freedom, perhaps not perfectly expressible as either Libre or Gratis? Perhaps just as English confuses Libre and Gratis, so common usage of Libre confuses, um, "Libre-as-in-personal-freedom" and "Scóp-as-in-freedom-to-do"?
Libre might be necessary but insufficient for Scóp, just as you're not particularly unfree because you lack lots of capital in present society, but you can't necessarily achieve everything cool you might want to, unlike a citizen of the (fictional) "Culture" post-scarcity society in an Iain M. Banks novel. Consider: access to fsf-free software and participation in its culture can provide scope for amazing further development even without huge "conventional" capital. Perhaps scóp is partly "freedom as in unimpeded potential for fulfilment."
I'm not an Irish scholar but I haven't come across the adjective "scóp" before. Scope can be translated "réimse" or "scóip", but these mean something like "field (of study, etc.)".
I'm pretty sure the word exists though, though I stress: *I could still be wrong about the exact colour of its meaning*, despite my lyricism above. I don't know how I even encountered the word before (though it must have been in school, as I have barely spoken a word of Irish since)
I'm not confident at all that there is an adjectival usage or that it would be an unusual prefix like sean or saor (it just "sounded right" that way round to me, and if there isn't an adjectival usage, hell, I'm as free as the next guy to invent one...).
I'm about 50 miles away from my printed dictionary, but Scóp [Shkaawp ?] as a word. probably noun, is present in at least two online Gaelic dictionaries, translating as "Scope/Freedom" and "Freedom":
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~smacsuib/focloir/gaelic-l/iggl1s.htm http://glossword.info/term/774,89,xhtml
Scóip [Shkoep?] with the i is probably a new import from English "scope", probably by someone unaware of the older word.
Dé Domh, 2003-11-02 ag 14:13, scríobh David Golden:
I don't really like Bogearraí - has a ring of a much-too-literal translation from the english. "Oideasra" is given as the translation for "software", "Oideas" for "program" here: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaeilge/foclora/abhair/riomhaire.htm
Yes, but bogearraí is also given here. Also, this is the translation given on http://www.acmhainn.ie/tearmai/01s.htm, which I understand is an "official" list of technical terms from Foras na Gaeilge. I think bogearraí is the word in common use, and it doesn't make much sense to go against that. IANAL. Linguist, that is.
While one may draw a distinction between "program" and "software", e.g. a collection of clipart could be "software", though perhaps most would not consider it a "program" as such, in formal terms, the image data can indeed be considered a "program" written in, say, the "language of jpeg", interpreted by the computer that displays the picture. Lispfucius Say: code is data, data is code.
Of course. Do you put a little GPL notice in the JPEG comment field? And what do you provide when they ask for the source code?! ;)
I'm pretty sure that "Saor" normally means "libre"...
Indeed, I'm pretty sure you're right. However, my worry over "Saor" was that in my experience, few use "saor in aisce" anymore - generations of schoolchildren dumb-translating with english-irish dictionaries have meant they use "saor" ambiguously, probably actually holding something isomorphic to the woolly english "free" in their minds.
Also, many Irish adjectives beginning with S have an opposite that begins with D, so "saor" (which primarily means libre, but also gratis) is the opposite of "daor" (which primarily means expensive (or dear), but also captive). This aids the confusion or drift in meaning...
But is Saor (which I am happy to take to mean Libre...) even the most appropriate for the sense of "Free" in the FSF, given Irish might have a third shade of freedom, perhaps not perfectly expressible as either Libre or Gratis? Perhaps just as English confuses Libre and Gratis, so common usage of Libre confuses, um, "Libre-as-in-personal-freedom" and "Scóp-as-in-freedom-to-do"?
...
I'm getting a better idea of what you mean now. Scope (or Scóp) to explore, experiment, etc. By the way, how do we translate this back into English?! Irish Organisation for Software with Scope to Do Things is a bit cumbersome.
I'm not confident at all that there is an adjectival usage or that it would be an unusual prefix like sean or saor (it just "sounded right" that way round to me, and if there isn't an adjectival usage, hell, I'm as free as the next guy to invent one...).
Of course, but you might have to invent one in English too! Scopic Software, perhaps?
I'm about 50 miles away from my printed dictionary, but Scóp [Shkaawp ?] as a word. probably noun, is present in at least two online Gaelic dictionaries, translating as "Scope/Freedom" and "Freedom":
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~smacsuib/focloir/gaelic-l/iggl1s.htm http://glossword.info/term/774,89,xhtml
Scóip [Shkoep?] with the i is probably a new import from English "scope", probably by someone unaware of the older word.
Perhaps. It's in my little Collins dictionary and is used in Dáil procedings (Scóip an Acht, Scope of the Act), in an abstract sense. But I don't want to start a Dictionary Fight!
I think that Saor is the best word to use, despite its ambiguity, and it seems to be the common way to translate Free (as in freedom) into Irish. Unfortunately this doesn't solve the "problem".
David
On Sun 02 Nov 2003 15:23, David O'Callaghan wrote:
Yes, but bogearraí is also given here.
Hmm... Which brings me to the other worrying problem with the word:
Just imagine sitting in a Galway pub and explaining that you and your friends are the western chapter of Cumann saor-Buggery na hEireann...
I'm getting a better idea of what you mean now. Scope (or Scóp) to explore, experiment, etc.
Yeah, that's pretty much it.
By the way, how do we translate this back into English?!
Dunno, my vo...voca... word stuff has decreased since that Dawson's Creek show went off the air.
Of course, but you might have to invent one in English too! Scopic Software, perhaps?
Well, Scopical is an English word according to Dictionary.com - but it's an adjectival form of radioscopy...
Scopeful? Seems to see a little web use as "having scope" alright, but perhaps it doesn't really capture the "freedom" well enough.
I think that Saor is the best word to use, despite its ambiguity, and it seems to be the common way to translate Free (as in freedom) into Irish.
"Saoirse 's Scóp" has a nice ring to it though, if you need a slogan...