Hello,
Confidentially to team@:
A member of the Helsinki city council and member of Finnish parliament, Johanna Sumuvuori (green party), made an initiative signed by 60 city council members last summer that the city of Helsinki should start using more free and open source software, with the primary incentive to save money in license payments. Since then I've been exchanging random e-mail (and Facebook) messages with her about he matter.
Last Friday she organised a meeting where she, Jyrki Kasvi (MP and Espoo city council member, green party), his assistant and Markku Rautio (IT chief of Helsinki City). I and Martin von Willebrand where there as representatives of FSFE.
The atmosphere at the meeting was very free and friendly, and we agreed to that the discussion would be confidential so that opinions and ideas could be exchanged without restrictions. Our main argument (which we agreed upon in prior with Martin) was that even though the short-term expenses to migrate to OpenOffice, other FOSS and eventually maybe Linux desktops might be larger than going one with the current Microsoft solutions, it would still be beneficial in the long term. In the current situation Microsoft controls both the cost of their licences and they also control the cost of a possible migration by being deliberately incompatible in file formats and APIs. We suggested that the city should work to decrease the migration costs, so that either Microsoft lowers it's fees or the migration becomes economically attractive. Either way would suit as and serve the public good. Although we also argued, that the open way of doing things is also likely to increase competition, quality and innovation. We also handed over some VALO-CD's and a copy of the French Gendarmerie case printed from OSOR.EU.
Our goal for the meeting was also to establish credibility, trust and lay grounds for future relations and I think we succeeded in that. The city is investigating possible migration paths, and immediately as the first step Helsinki is going to install OpenOffice on all city workstations alongside the current MS Office. It is hard to tell what Markku Rautio's true opinion and intentions about the issue was, but there is a possibility that things would start to go in a good direction. We'll now just have to wait and see what happens. Microsoft is also likely to strike back in some way.
Note that this is still confidential and you can't talk about this until the city makes its official announcements. That might happen in March earliest. Also note that COSS has laid the foundations for this kind of work and positive environment for FOSS in Finland, so are just adding water to the mill to go faster.
Your man in Helsinki,
Otto
Hi Otto and Martin, Very good job you did there! Congratulations!
On 24/01/2011 13:15, Otto Kekäläinen wrote:
Confidentially to team@:
The atmosphere at the meeting was very free and friendly, and we agreed to that the discussion would be confidential so that opinions and ideas could be exchanged without restrictions. Our main argument (which we agreed upon in prior with Martin) was that even though the short-term expenses to migrate to OpenOffice, other FOSS and eventually maybe Linux desktops might be larger than going one with the current Microsoft solutions, it would still be beneficial in the long term.
What about the mid-term? I would think that "long-term" can be scary, using "mid-term" as a (valid?) replacement could be an idea. Did you have any figures/illustrations of these costs, by the way? (on which to base short/mid/long-term costs upon)
The atmosphere at the meeting was very free and friendly, and we agreed to that the discussion would be confidential so that opinions and ideas could be exchanged without restrictions. Our main argument (which we agreed upon in prior with Martin) was that even though the short-term expenses to migrate to OpenOffice, other FOSS and eventually maybe Linux desktops might be larger than going one with the current Microsoft solutions, it would still be beneficial in the long term.
What about the mid-term? I would think that "long-term" can be scary, using "mid-term" as a (valid?) replacement could be an idea. Did you have any figures/illustrations of these costs, by the way? (on which to base short/mid/long-term costs upon)
I expect this discussion to remain confidential.
One main point was to establish credibility for FSFE, as a discussion partner. There is a political push now in Helsinki city, so something will happen. We didn't have calculations since 1) we didn't prepare any and 2) we didn't need due to the political push.
The argument on "longer than short-term" is needed mostly to convince the project people in case short-term calculations show differently (due to anti-competitive pricing of the competition). Decision makers follow the political push, for the initial try-outs at least. Political push can change.
Martin
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On 24/01/2011 15:47, Martin von Willebrand wrote:
The atmosphere at the meeting was very free and friendly, and we agreed to that the discussion would be confidential so that opinions and ideas could be exchanged without restrictions. Our main argument (which we agreed upon in prior with Martin) was that even though the short-term expenses to migrate to OpenOffice, other FOSS and eventually maybe Linux desktops might be larger than going one with the current Microsoft solutions, it would still be beneficial in the long term.
What about the mid-term? I would think that "long-term" can be scary, using "mid-term" as a (valid?) replacement could be an idea. Did you have any figures/illustrations of these costs, by the way? (on which to base short/mid/long-term costs upon)
I expect this discussion to remain confidential.
One main point was to establish credibility for FSFE, as a discussion partner. There is a political push now in Helsinki city, so something will happen. We didn't have calculations since 1) we didn't prepare any and 2) we didn't need due to the political push.
The argument on "longer than short-term" is needed mostly to convince the project people in case short-term calculations show differently (due to anti-competitive pricing of the competition). Decision makers follow the political push, for the initial try-outs at least. Political push can change.
Thanks very much for your vision on this! I understand and agree with your arguments. Nicolas
FYI: http://www.osor.eu/news/fi-city-of-helsinki-to-start-open-source-desktop-pil...
MP Sumuvuori somehow got OSOR.eu to write about this. I don't know here the got the tip from..
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 03:33:51PM +0200, Otto Kekäläinen wrote:
FYI: http://www.osor.eu/news/fi-city-of-helsinki-to-start-open-source-desktop-pil...
MP Sumuvuori somehow got OSOR.eu to write about this. I don't know here the got the tip from..
Interesting. I know the OSOR journalist very well, but he certainly didn't get this info from me.
There's a paragraph in the article that lists other users of Free Software in the Finnish public sector:
In the resolution, the council members refer to other public administrations in Finland that are using open source. According to the council members, the ministry of Defence has been using Linux and other open source software for years to develop some of its critical applications. They also point to the Finnish judicial system that has switched to using open source office applications. "Many schools have already switched and in the city of Lappeenranta they estimate this will help to save some 70 percent on the schools' IT budget."
These could be useful sources of information on issues like strategy and support.
Best regards, Karsten
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 03:33:51PM +0200, Otto Kekäläinen wrote:
FYI: http://www.osor.eu/news/fi-city-of-helsinki-to-start-open-source-desktop-
pilot
MP Sumuvuori somehow got OSOR.eu to write about this. I don't know here the got the tip from..
Interesting. I know the OSOR journalist very well, but he certainly didn't get this info from me.
I also wondered where the news came from. But apparently Markku Raitio was also interviewed. Hopefully there is no harm done. Perhaps someone was diligent in going through the council's decisions? There was a more generic news about this and other developments some days ago: it might have triggered some investigations.
There's a paragraph in the article that lists other users of Free Software in the Finnish public sector:
In the resolution, the council members refer to other public administrations in Finland that are using open source. According to the council members, the ministry of Defence has been using Linux and other open source software for years to develop some of its critical applications. They also point to the Finnish judicial system that has switched to using open source office applications. "Many schools have already switched and in the city of Lappeenranta they estimate this will help to save some 70 percent on the schools' IT budget."
These could be useful sources of information on issues like strategy and support.
Yes, these are good (and known) references to which we have good contacts, I believe.
Best regards, Karsten
-- Karsten Gerloff [ ] gerloff@fsfeurope.org Free Software Foundation Europe [ ][ ][ ] [http://fsfe.org] President | | +49 176 9690 4298 Your donation powers our work! [http://fsfe.org/donate/]
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Hi Martin, Otto,
apologies for the long response time. I was waiting for feedback from Gijs, the OSOR journalist.
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 04:27:28PM +0200, Martin von Willebrand wrote:
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 03:33:51PM +0200, Otto Kekäläinen wrote:
FYI: http://www.osor.eu/news/fi-city-of-helsinki-to-start-open-source-desktop-
pilot
MP Sumuvuori somehow got OSOR.eu to write about this. I don't know here the got the tip from..
Interesting. I know the OSOR journalist very well, but he certainly didn't get this info from me.
I also wondered where the news came from. But apparently Markku Raitio was also interviewed. Hopefully there is no harm done. Perhaps someone was diligent in going through the council's decisions? There was a more generic news about this and other developments some days ago: it might have triggered some investigations.
Gijs tells me that he hit upon the topic through another OSOR news item [1]. He then went to the Helsinki city council's web pages to find out more.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was the MP herself who pushed for the publication. MPs love publicity, as a general rule.
Otto, perhaps it would be good to contact the participants of your meeting, discreetly let them know that this didn't get out through FSFE, and ask them if there's anything that we can do to help or support the migration.
Thanks & best, Karsten
[1] http://www.osor.eu/news/fi-municipalities-increasingly-interested-in-open-so...
Gijs tells me that he hit upon the topic through another OSOR news item [1]. He then went to the Helsinki city council's web pages to find out more.
This news item [1] was a (not so great) translation of news story published quite largely in Finland.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was the MP herself who pushed for the publication. MPs love publicity, as a general rule.
Otto, perhaps it would be good to contact the participants of your meeting, discreetly let them know that this didn't get out through FSFE, and ask them if there's anything that we can do to help or support the migration.
I agree this would be a good course of action. A natural reason for making a continued contact, allowing also other topics to develop.
Martin
[1] http://www.osor.eu/news/fi-municipalities-increasingly-interested-in- open-source-software
-- Karsten Gerloff [ ] gerloff@fsfeurope.org Free Software Foundation Europe [ ][ ][ ] [http://fsfe.org] President | | +49 176 9690 4298 Your donation powers our work! [http://fsfe.org/donate/]
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ti, 2011-02-01 kello 12:19 +0200, Martin von Willebrand kirjoitti:
Otto, perhaps it would be good to contact the participants of your meeting, discreetly let them know that this didn't get out through FSFE, and ask them if there's anything that we can do to help or support the migration.
I agree this would be a good course of action. A natural reason for making a continued contact, allowing also other topics to develop.
Done. Copies of message to finland@ and Martin.
On Wed, Feb 02, 2011 at 12:47:38PM +0200, Otto Kekäläinen wrote:
ti, 2011-02-01 kello 12:19 +0200, Martin von Willebrand kirjoitti:
Otto, perhaps it would be good to contact the participants of your meeting, discreetly let them know that this didn't get out through FSFE, and ask them if there's anything that we can do to help or support the migration.
I agree this would be a good course of action. A natural reason for making a continued contact, allowing also other topics to develop.
Done. Copies of message to finland@ and Martin.
Many thanks!
Best regards, Karsten
Hi Otto, Martin,
thank you very much for this!
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 02:15:23PM +0200, Otto Kekäläinen wrote:
A member of the Helsinki city council and member of Finnish parliament, Johanna Sumuvuori (green party), made an initiative signed by 60 city council members last summer that the city of Helsinki should start using more free and open source software, with the primary incentive to save money in license payments. Since then I've been exchanging random e-mail (and Facebook) messages with her about he matter.
Last Friday she organised a meeting where she, Jyrki Kasvi (MP and Espoo city council member, green party), his assistant and Markku Rautio (IT chief of Helsinki City). I and Martin von Willebrand where there as representatives of FSFE.
The atmosphere at the meeting was very free and friendly, and we agreed to that the discussion would be confidential so that opinions and ideas could be exchanged without restrictions.
I think this is exactly the right approach.
Our main argument (which we agreed upon in prior with Martin) was that even though the short-term expenses to migrate to OpenOffice, other FOSS and eventually maybe Linux desktops might be larger than going one with the current Microsoft solutions, it would still be beneficial in the long term. In the current situation Microsoft controls both the cost of their licences and they also control the cost of a possible migration by being deliberately incompatible in file formats and APIs. We suggested that the city should work to decrease the migration costs, so that either Microsoft lowers it's fees or the migration becomes economically attractive. Either way would suit as and serve the public good. Although we also argued, that the open way of doing things is also likely to increase competition, quality and innovation. We also handed over some VALO-CD's and a copy of the French Gendarmerie case printed from OSOR.EU.
All these steps are excellent. Public administrations tend to look only at the short-term costs in their procurement, and it's important to remind them about the long-term lock-in that proprietary software exposes them to.
The fact that you were able to make a detailed and technical argument must have helped immensely.
Our goal for the meeting was also to establish credibility, trust and lay grounds for future relations and I think we succeeded in that. The city is investigating possible migration paths, and immediately as the first step Helsinki is going to install OpenOffice on all city workstations alongside the current MS Office. It is hard to tell what Markku Rautio's true opinion and intentions about the issue was, but there is a possibility that things would start to go in a good direction. We'll now just have to wait and see what happens. Microsoft is also likely to strike back in some way.
The city of Helsinki has to start somewhere, and installing OpenOffice is a well-trodden migration path to Free Software. Keeping them going down that path will probably require continuous prodding, but getting them to walk in this direction at all is probably the most difficult thing to do -- and you've already achieved that.
Note that this is still confidential and you can't talk about this until the city makes its official announcements. That might happen in March earliest. Also note that COSS has laid the foundations for this kind of work and positive environment for FOSS in Finland, so are just adding water to the mill to go faster.
Perfect. It's good to see things coming together in this way! Congratulations on your success!
Best regards, Karsten
Our goal for the meeting was also to establish credibility, trust and lay grounds for future relations and I think we succeeded in that. The city is investigating possible migration paths, and immediately as the first step Helsinki is going to install OpenOffice on all city workstations alongside the current MS Office. It is hard to tell what Markku Rautio's true opinion and intentions about the issue was, but there is a possibility that things would start to go in a good direction. We'll now just have to wait and see what happens. Microsoft is also likely to strike back in some way.
The city of Helsinki has to start somewhere, and installing OpenOffice is a well-trodden migration path to Free Software. Keeping them going down that path will probably require continuous prodding, but getting them to walk in this direction at all is probably the most difficult thing to do -- and you've already achieved that.
One discussion item was who would be able to provide Open Office support (user support mainly, but probably also technical, such as helping with security patch distribution etc.) to an organisation of this size (40.000 employees). What are the experiences from elsewhere?
It would seem as a lucrative contract (e.g. 4 years) for someone acting in the field, even if Open Office is new to the organisation. The pricing is of course difficult, if there is little experience on migrations and day-to-day support. Getting a bigger vendor to be able to offer something like this would be of course of great help in all future transitions.
Martin
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Hi,
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 06:05:49PM +0200, Martin von Willebrand wrote:
Our goal for the meeting was also to establish credibility, trust and lay grounds for future relations and I think we succeeded in that. The city is investigating possible migration paths, and immediately as the first step Helsinki is going to install OpenOffice on all city workstations alongside the current MS Office. It is hard to tell what Markku Rautio's true opinion and intentions about the issue was, but there is a possibility that things would start to go in a good direction. We'll now just have to wait and see what happens. Microsoft is also likely to strike back in some way.
The city of Helsinki has to start somewhere, and installing OpenOffice is a well-trodden migration path to Free Software. Keeping them going down that path will probably require continuous prodding, but getting them to walk in this direction at all is probably the most difficult thing to do -- and you've already achieved that.
One discussion item was who would be able to provide Open Office support (user support mainly, but probably also technical, such as helping with security patch distribution etc.) to an organisation of this size (40.000 employees). What are the experiences from elsewhere?
It would seem as a lucrative contract (e.g. 4 years) for someone acting in the field, even if Open Office is new to the organisation. The pricing is of course difficult, if there is little experience on migrations and day-to-day support. Getting a bigger vendor to be able to offer something like this would be of course of great help in all future transitions.
I'm not really up to speed on the companies that are active in the Finnish market. COSS might be in a better position to answer this.
The people in Helsinki could also contact the City of Munich, where a migration of a similar scale is currently being implemented. Munich's Limux team is usually very happy to share their experiences. If needed, I'll be happy to provide introductions.
The case studies on osor.eu should provide further leads to big OpenOffice users across Europe.
In Sweden, they could talk to Daniel Melin at one of Sweden's procurement authorities, the Kammarkollegiet daniel.melin@kammarkollegiet.se, or to researcher Björn Lundell bjorn.lundell@his.se. These two would be the most likely to turn up a Scandinavian supplier.
I hope this helps!
Best regards, Karsten
One discussion item was who would be able to provide Open Office support
(user support mainly, but probably also technical, such as helping with security patch distribution etc.) to an organisation of this size (40.000 employees). What are the experiences from elsewhere?
I'm not really up to speed on the companies that are active in the Finnish market. COSS might be in a better position to answer this.
I was rather wondering whether you have experiences how the different migrators have handled support. Have they implemented support themselves, or is there success (or failure) stories of local companies developing support services in these connections? For the Finnish market as a whole, I think it would be valuable if some of the local bigger players would step up and it would become a viable commercial service for vendors and buyers. (But again I was wondering how this has happened elsewhere: yes, a little of research into the cases would answer this, so I'm being lazy.)
The people in Helsinki could also contact the City of Munich, where a migration of a similar scale is currently being implemented. Munich's Limux team is usually very happy to share their experiences. If needed, I'll be happy to provide introductions.
In Sweden, they could talk to Daniel Melin at one of Sweden's procurement authorities, the Kammarkollegiet daniel.melin@kammarkollegiet.se, or to researcher Björn Lundell bjorn.lundell@his.se. These two would be the most likely to turn up a Scandinavian supplier.
It is probably a good idea for Otto to ask - next time he contacts Markku Raitio - whether Helsinki needs contacts, and offer those.
Br, Martin
-- Karsten Gerloff [ ] gerloff@fsfeurope.org Free Software Foundation Europe [ ][ ][ ] [http://fsfe.org] President | | +49 176 9690 4298 Your donation powers our work! [http://fsfe.org/donate/]
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On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 09:05:17AM +0200, Martin von Willebrand wrote:
One discussion item was who would be able to provide Open Office support
(user support mainly, but probably also technical, such as helping with security patch distribution etc.) to an organisation of this size (40.000 employees). What are the experiences from elsewhere?
I'm not really up to speed on the companies that are active in the Finnish market. COSS might be in a better position to answer this.
I was rather wondering whether you have experiences how the different migrators have handled support. Have they implemented support themselves, or is there success (or failure) stories of local companies developing support services in these connections?
My experiences with this stem mostly from preparing or supervising about 20 of the case studies on OSOR.eu. There's really no "typical" migration.
The largest migrations I can think of are the Andalusian schools (ca. 250,000) and the schools in Extremadura (again somewhere in the region of 150,000, IIRC). All these were migrations from Windows to GNU/Linux, so they usually implied a migration from Microsoft Office to OpenOffice as well.
In Extremadura, support was provided by local companies, most or all of them small. In Andalusia, the migration was implemented (IIRC) by a local company in cooperation with Canonical.
The French Gendarmerie (=police) is currently migrating its desktops (for ca. 100,000 employees) to Ubuntu GNU/Linux, after starting to use OpenOffice in 2005 [1]. They apparently did most of the work in-house, with occasional contacts to Canonical.
For the Finnish market as a whole, I think it would be valuable if some of the local bigger players would step up and it would become a viable commercial service for vendors and buyers.
If I understand correctly, Helsinki would be a pioneer in Finland in terms of using OpenOffice. Bigger companies tend to be a bit lazy, and often step in only when demand for a particular service is already highly visible. (I recall that Unisys grudgingly added Free Software services to its portfolio some time around 2007.)
In Helsinki's situation, local companies might be a better bet. If there isn't one that's big enough for Helsinki's needs, the city could look for a consortium rather than a single company. Local companies also have the advantage of providing local jobs and paying local taxes, which makes them politically attractive.
Helsinki could also look towards the call for tender that Sweden's Kammarkollegiet (=procurement organisation) published in early November 2010. They're looking for companies to provide Sweden's public bodies (from the national to the local) with Free Software and related services. Kammarkollegiet has been putting a lot of effort into drafting the call for tender, and in particular the contract terms.
I'll send you and Otto the documents in a separate mail (they're public, and I'll happily send them to anyone who asks, but don't want to spam the list). I haven't looked at the terms in great detail yet, but at least they appear vastly better in Free Software terms than the average call for tender. (The docs are in Swedish, btw.) Daniel Melin, whom I mentioned yesterday, is the person to talk to.
The people in Helsinki could also contact the City of Munich, where a migration of a similar scale is currently being implemented. Munich's Limux team is usually very happy to share their experiences. If needed, I'll be happy to provide introductions.
In Sweden, they could talk to Daniel Melin at one of Sweden's procurement authorities, the Kammarkollegiet daniel.melin@kammarkollegiet.se, or to researcher Björn Lundell bjorn.lundell@his.se. These two would be the most likely to turn up a Scandinavian supplier.
It is probably a good idea for Otto to ask - next time he contacts Markku Raitio - whether Helsinki needs contacts, and offer those.
I agree.
I should highlight that in most migrations I've seen (whether to OpenOffice or GNU/Linux), the problem wasn't the technology. If something went wrong, it was usually related to the way in which the migration was communicated. If workers believe that they're being given a second-rate solution in order to save money, there will be pushback.
If they can instead be convinced that they're joining the cutting edge of the technological revolution, they can be enthusiastic supporters. (Munich's Limux team developed a whole communication strategy, including a mascot.)
An approach that has worked well in various cases is to seek out a number of relatively IT-savvy regular workers (perhaps 5-10% of the employees); train them in the use of the new solution; and have them provide training to their colleagues. Since they're perceived as normal people rather than IT wizards, and know the way things work in their offices, their colleagues trust them more and are more willing to ask for help, rather than just amass frustration about a problem. This can also save a decent amount of support effort.
Best regards, Karsten
[1] http://www.osor.eu/studies/towards-the-freedom-of-the-operating-system-the-f...
Br, Martin
-- Karsten Gerloff [ ] gerloff@fsfeurope.org Free Software Foundation Europe [ ][ ][ ] [http://fsfe.org] President | | +49 176 9690 4298 Your donation powers our work! [http://fsfe.org/donate/]
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