Hello,
You know how hard it is to find a good laptop. You know how harder it can be to find one without windows, or better, with some flavour of GNU/Linux preinstalled.
I'm looking for a new laptop. Do you have suggestions matching:
* Good support with Debian Testing * No more than 13 inches * Good Battery life. At least 5 hours * around 1 kilo / 2.4 pounds * No more than 500 EUR * SSD http://blogs.fsfe.org/hugo/2013/01/im-looking-for-a-new-laptop-suggestions/
Thanks!! Hugo
On 13/01/13 23:28, Hugo Roy wrote:
Hello,
You know how hard it is to find a good laptop. You know how harder it can be to find one without windows, or better, with some flavour of GNU/Linux preinstalled.
Secondhand Thinkpad X series (e.g. from eBay in the US)
We have two X220 Thinkpads, both with touchscreen. It is worth paying more to get the Ultimate N wifi card, one of ours has the regular Thinkpad wifi and we have often noticed differences in performance when using them in the same location
All hardware, including touchscreen, webcam, wifi seem to work with Debian 6 and 7 and I've used it for the full advertised 6 hours when flying long distances.
I'm looking for a new laptop. Do you have suggestions matching:
* Good support with Debian Testing * No more than 13 inches * Good Battery life. At least 5 hours * around 1 kilo / 2.4 pounds * No more than 500 EUR * SSDhttp://blogs.fsfe.org/hugo/2013/01/im-looking-for-a-new-laptop-suggestions/
Thanks!! Hugo
if you are looking forward to buy Thinkpad, try to find somebody to bring it to you from USA.
In USA you can get for 1200$ MUCH better configuration than in EU for 1800 euro
On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 11:38 PM, Alexander Stephen Thomas Ross < maillist_fsfe@aross.me> wrote:
Wait for Rhombus-tech.net laptop.
______________________________**_________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/**mailman/listinfo/discussionhttps://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
* Så talte Daniel Pocock daniel@pocock.com.au:
On 13/01/13 23:28, Hugo Roy wrote:
Hello,
You know how hard it is to find a good laptop. You know how harder it can be to find one without windows, or better, with some flavour of GNU/Linux preinstalled.
Secondhand Thinkpad X series (e.g. from eBay in the US)
We have two X220 Thinkpads, both with touchscreen.
I can second the Thinkpad X220, it's one of the best machines I've used in a long time. I hear the lighter and more slick X1 Carbon should also be good, especially because it has a better and brighter screen.
Hello Hugo,
On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 11:28:12PM +0100, Hugo Roy wrote:
You know how hard it is to find a good laptop. You know how harder it can be to find one without windows, or better, with some flavour of GNU/Linux preinstalled.
I'm looking for a new laptop. Do you have suggestions matching:
* Good support with Debian Testing * No more than 13 inches * Good Battery life. At least 5 hours * around 1 kilo / 2.4 pounds * No more than 500 EUR * SSDhttp://blogs.fsfe.org/hugo/2013/01/im-looking-for-a-new-laptop-suggestions/
Have you already had a look at https://www.wiki.fsfe.org/Hardware%20Vendors ?
Greetings,
Guido
Salut Hugo.
Although it does not really match your specifications, you may be interested by my last laptop purchase experience. I was looking for a lightweight laptop, 10 inches, without paying for a Windows license I would not use, and with good Debian testing support too.
There was not much choice here: the only netbook manufacturer to offer a rather easy Windows tax refund is Asus. The graphic chipset embedded in the current Intel Atom processors require a lame proprietary driver and suck with free drivers. Asus and Acer, the last netbook manufacturers, are going to eventually abandon that market.
With all that context, there was almost only one model left: Asus Eee PC 1015BX. Cheap, using perfectly supported AMD graphic chipset and wifi card, without requiring any proprietary firmware. Asus has agreed to refund me the Windows tax, I am now waiting for their transfer.
That laptop is not perfect though, and I have discovered three significant problems with it: * it has an EFI firmware, which is fine for configuring the motherboard, but almost unusable to boot because it implements an old version of the UEFI specification (so I am booting that laptop in BIOS mode, which works fine); * they only put a single loudspeaker, the right one I think, so the left channel produces no sound; * they only put a single hybrid microphone/headset jack, which may or may not work with telephone-type four-rings jacks for mic/headset combos, but I have not tested that yet.
Hope it helps. If you decide to buy a netbook, hurry up, because the last ones are currently being sold in discount, and there will probably be not new ones after that.
Librement,
Thanks everyone for the suggestions! I'll have a look. Meanwhile, I just noticed there's a new Chromebook http://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/education/devices/lenovo-x131e-chromebo...
Apart from the weight, it is perfect. I hope they will sell them in Europe...
Best, HUgo
Am 17.01.2013 22:04, schrieb Hugo Roy:
Thanks everyone for the suggestions! I'll have a look. Meanwhile, I just noticed there's a new Chromebook Apart from the weight, it is perfect. I hope they will sell them in Europe...
Yea, you're right, absolutely. It's awesome! Need it. Want it. OMG! OMGOMG XOXOXO!
Supporting Google is what free software is all about - just think of Google search - it is free! Google News - free! Google Docs - no need for Microsoft anymore! Google is freedom. I am so happy.
But, wait - what if Coca-Cola, Nestlé or UniLever put out a similar laptop? Or the new Facebook laptop comes out two weeks after you buy? Isn't that worth waiting a little bit? Just think of the incredible McDonalds laptop - it even will bear Ketchup on the keyboard, which in turn you would not need because it will have a multitouchpadscreen being as good as never before. Ever. Well, it can be topped by the MonSanto Tablet, which will definitely be worth to look upon.
For sure you will not be supporting the companies - no, numbers do not count, even if it were sales counts. Stay safe.
Sigh... I'm exhausted - guess I need some googling to power up my batteries. :-)
Thanks for staying up so late, ;-)
Rob
Le jeudi 17 janvier 2013 à 23:06 +0100, Robert Kehl a écrit :
Thanks for staying up so late, ;-)
I'm not sure you understand that I will install debian on this...
When I said that it was exactly what I was looking for, I was only referring to the hardware obviously.
Unfortunately, none of the laptops sold without any os match my criteria. My laptop is my everyday working tool, the hardware is important too…
That is the sad state of getting free software on hardware. I'm not happy about this, but please keep your improper sarcasm for yourself, you're more making a fool of yourself than anything else.
Am 18.01.2013 00:27, schrieb Hugo Roy:
Le jeudi 17 janvier 2013 à 23:06 +0100, Robert Kehl a écrit :
Thanks for staying up so late, ;-)
I'm not sure you understand that I will install debian on this...
For sure I did.
That is the sad state of getting free software on hardware. I'm not happy about this, but please keep your improper sarcasm for yourself, you're more making a fool of yourself than anything else.
You did see the smileys? Calm down, Hugo, no need to get angry. Supporting Google is nothing we should do, and numbers count, even if you do not use Googles software. So, one should not buy Googles products if possible.
That's just my 0.02, no sarcasm implied :-) <---
With kind regards,
Robert Kehl
(...) and numbers count (..)
Exactly. And this is why he should buy it. Given the choice between
a) an expensive laptop with "Microsoft tax" or b) a comparable, less expensive laptop from a company that might be evil but still opensources a lot of SW
a) is the preferrable option. Better still would be c) good, affordable laptop without UEFI and no SW at all (I don't like preinstalled software, because I think it is all about freedom and I don't want any specific distro brutally "suggested" to me)
But if c) is not available, b) is still better than a) (kind of lika a "least worst" decision)
Have a nice day (and weekend :-))
Michael
On Fri, 2013-01-18 at 09:57 +0100, Michael G wrote:
Better still would be c) good, affordable laptop without UEFI and no
What's wrong with UEFI ?
Simo.
Le vendredi 18 janvier 2013 à 09:16 -0500, simo a écrit :
On Fri, 2013-01-18 at 09:57 +0100, Michael G wrote:
Better still would be c) good, affordable laptop without UEFI and no
What's wrong with UEFI ?
Thank you Simo for pointing it out. What's usually wrong with UEFI (the replacement for BIOS) is the "Secure Boot" feature. Matthias published an analysis on fsfe.org: http://fsfe.org/campaigns/generalpurposecomputing/secure-boot-analysis.en.ht...
Best,
Hugo Roy, 2013-01-18 15:59+0100:
Le vendredi 18 janvier 2013 à 09:16 -0500, simo a écrit :
What's wrong with UEFI ?
Thank you Simo for pointing it out. What's usually wrong with UEFI (the replacement for BIOS) is the "Secure Boot" feature. Matthias published an analysis on fsfe.org: http://fsfe.org/campaigns/generalpurposecomputing/secure-boot-analysis.en.ht...
But note that there are computers with an UEFI and no Secure Boot.
Without intended to promote dissent, I like UEFI with secure boot when I can upload the signing keys and there is a physical switch on such key storage. That way I can secure my own machine and retain my own freedom.
I acknowledge that UEFI + secure boot generally refers to something more restrictive
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Tanguy Ortolo tanguy+fsfe@ortolo.euwrote:
Hugo Roy, 2013-01-18 15:59+0100:
Le vendredi 18 janvier 2013 à 09:16 -0500, simo a écrit :
What's wrong with UEFI ?
Thank you Simo for pointing it out. What's usually wrong with UEFI (the replacement for BIOS) is the "Secure Boot" feature. Matthias published an analysis on fsfe.org:
http://fsfe.org/campaigns/generalpurposecomputing/secure-boot-analysis.en.ht...
But note that there are computers with an UEFI and no Secure Boot.
-- Tanguy
Discussion mailing list Discussion@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
Le vendredi 18 janvier 2013 à 15:24 +0000, Sam Liddicott a écrit :
Without intended to promote dissent, I like UEFI with secure boot when I can upload the signing keys and there is a physical switch on such key storage. That way I can secure my own machine and retain my own freedom.
I think that's exactly our position too. Matthias can tell you more about that ;)
* Hugo Roy hugo@fsfe.org [2013-01-18 16:28:43 +0100]:
Le vendredi 18 janvier 2013 à 15:24 +0000, Sam Liddicott a écrit :
Without intended to promote dissent, I like UEFI with secure boot when I can upload the signing keys and there is a physical switch on such key storage. That way I can secure my own machine and retain my own freedom.
I think that's exactly our position too. Matthias can tell you more about that ;)
Yes, the above would be good. But that is not how UEFI works at the moment. See http://fsfe.org/campaigns/generalpurposecomputing/secure-boot-analysis.en.ht....
Regards, Matthias
Le vendredi 18 janvier 2013 à 15:20 +0000, Tanguy Ortolo a écrit :
But note that there are computers with an UEFI and no Secure Boot.
Yes. But there are also computers where Secure Boot is required by certain software editors (e.g. Microsoft Windows on ARM devices) and I suspect we are going to see more of these in the future.
On Fri, 2013-01-18 at 15:59 +0100, Hugo Roy wrote:
Le vendredi 18 janvier 2013 à 09:16 -0500, simo a écrit :
On Fri, 2013-01-18 at 09:57 +0100, Michael G wrote:
Better still would be c) good, affordable laptop without UEFI and no
What's wrong with UEFI ?
Thank you Simo for pointing it out. What's usually wrong with UEFI (the replacement for BIOS) is the "Secure Boot" feature. Matthias published an analysis on fsfe.org: http://fsfe.org/campaigns/generalpurposecomputing/secure-boot-analysis.en.ht...
SecureBoot can be disabled in most UEFI systems, it would have been better to explictly say no 'Secure Boot', UEFI is much, much more than just Secure Boot.
(and someone may complain about proprietary binary drivers in UEFI, but then the BIOS is usually proprietary too, so I see no difference there.)
Simo.
* simo idra@samba.org [2013-01-18 10:24:28 -0500]:
On Fri, 2013-01-18 at 15:59 +0100, Hugo Roy wrote:
Le vendredi 18 janvier 2013 à 09:16 -0500, simo a écrit :
On Fri, 2013-01-18 at 09:57 +0100, Michael G wrote:
Better still would be c) good, affordable laptop without UEFI and no
What's wrong with UEFI ?
Thank you Simo for pointing it out. What's usually wrong with UEFI (the replacement for BIOS) is the "Secure Boot" feature. Matthias published an analysis on fsfe.org: http://fsfe.org/campaigns/generalpurposecomputing/secure-boot-analysis.en.ht...
SecureBoot can be disabled in most UEFI systems, it would have been better to explictly say no 'Secure Boot', UEFI is much, much more than just Secure Boot.
Yes, "Secure Boot" is just a part, as written in the article above:
In 2012 the industry-wide transition of PCs, notebooks, servers, and other computers' firmware from conventional BIOS to UEFI will be mostly complete. Compared to conventional BIOS, UEFI has several advantages, such as faster boot time, operating system independent drivers, and the promise of extended security.
The security aspect is handled by a function called "Secure Boot". [...]
Do you have any statistics that it can be disables in most UEFI systems? I have not seen any numbers yet. And what did you have to do, to disable it?
Beside, we would like to have Secure Boot in a way, that it can also be used with Free Software operating systems.
Regards, Matthias
Hello,
On 18 January 2013 08:16, Robert Kehl rk23@fsfe.org wrote:
I'm not sure you understand that I will install debian on this...
For sure I did.
I thought you might have been ignorant, but now I have to agree with Hugo. Your tirade was counterproductive and useless.
You did see the smileys? Calm down, Hugo, no need to get angry. Supporting Google is nothing we should do, and numbers count, even if you do not use Googles software. So, one should not buy Googles products if possible.
That attitude is, of course, also counterproductive. One shoult not support Google's products that are non-free or market leaders. However, getting subsidised hardware and then not using Google's OS on it is actually harmful to Google's attempts to produce half-free software compilations branded as OSes.
Furthermore, I would like to point out that Google supports several Free Software organisations (including FSFE), a lot of FS development by providing Google Code infrastructure and offers quite a few FS packages; thus, Google is not by far the worst option.
Also on the pro side, one can be pretty sure that GNU/Linux has the hardware support necessary to keep the Chromebook nicely running. Not many systems guarantee that. Personally I am using a 15.4" Asus laptop that is going to turn 4 soon and that laptop has better wireless support on Windows (not that I have it installed) than GNU/Linux.
Cheers,
Don't worry Hugo;
however zealous one might be for freedom, there is always someone else who will still see one as a yellow running dog shill
The answer (which you understand) is to seek freedom rather than approval
Sam
On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 11:27 PM, Hugo Roy hugo@fsfe.org wrote:
Le jeudi 17 janvier 2013 à 23:06 +0100, Robert Kehl a écrit :
Thanks for staying up so late, ;-)
I'm not sure you understand that I will install debian on this...
When I said that it was exactly what I was looking for, I was only referring to the hardware obviously.
Unfortunately, none of the laptops sold without any os match my criteria. My laptop is my everyday working tool, the hardware is important too…
That is the sad state of getting free software on hardware. I'm not happy about this, but please keep your improper sarcasm for yourself, you're more making a fool of yourself than anything else. -- Hugo Roy FSFE Legal Team Deputy Coordinator FSFE French Team Coordinator Support Free Software, sign up! https://fsfe.org/support
Discussion mailing list Discussion@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion