void FSF::beards() {
Some people here have been making remarks about bearded programmers. I just want to point out that *hey* I resemble that remark! I feel somewhat discriminated now. ;-)
If it weren't for a certain bearded programmer, there would *be* no FSF in the first place. :-P }
void FSF::female_participants() {
As to the female programmer bit:
I would like to point out that the worlds very first hacker was Ada Byron(Lady Lovelace). She *invented* programming.
Another important person was Grace Hopper. She did stuff to make COBOL possible. However, since it's still used today, she must have done something right.
I also somehow seem to remember that originally most programmers were female (and the engineers building the machines were male), but that could just be a hallucination on my part.
In any case, this does seem to indicate that woman should definately be able to programme. I would think that this should be *especially* true in the case of Free Software, where intuition, communication, and social skills are very important.
So why aren't there more female free software programmers? }
read you soon, K. Bruning.
Nice code, but why all those commas and brackets?
Hi!
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 01:43:50PM +0200, Kim Bruning (seperate for lists) wrote:
void FSF::beards() { Some people here have been making remarks about bearded programmers. I just want to point out that *hey* I resemble that remark! I feel somewhat discriminated now. ;-)
If it weren't for a certain bearded programmer, there would *be* no FSF in the first place. :-P }
see http://tuxedo.org/~esr/ecsl/index.html
Eike
On Thu, 10 May 2001, Eike Lange wrote:
Hi!
<straight face> This does not fit the requirement. Erics need only have a moustache. </straight face>
read you soon, Kim Bruning
It will take me some time before I'm as funny as larry wall. :-)
Kim Bruning (seperate for lists) wrote:
(...) void FSF::female_participants() { (...)
In any case, this does seem to indicate that woman should definately be able to programme. I would think that this should be *especially* true in the case of Free Software, where intuition, communication, and social skills are very important.
So why aren't there more female free software programmers? }
Eh, the problem is, by relating intutition, communication and social skills you have made a discriminating remark ;)
I saw this happen on debian-devel, the answer from the women was "Do you think you have included every stereotype known?".
Bottom line: trying to say the women can program because they have this special skills makes the argument that men can code better because they have the "intelectual, rational, algorithmic" skills...
I know what you meant and I even agree with you, but most women would complain at that remark; that's why I just say: if there aren't any more women is because they don't want to join, period; this is simplistic, and one could go into Freudian and sociological explanations that could tell a lot, but at least I don't risk getting flammed :)
Best Regards,
fsm
-- Frederico S. Muñoz fsmunoz@sdf.lonestar.org
Hello,
Frederico Muñoz wrote:
Eh, the problem is, by relating intutition, communication and social skills you have made a discriminating remark ;)
I saw this happen on debian-devel, the answer from the women was "Do you think you have included every stereotype known?".
Bottom line: trying to say the women can program because they have this special skills makes the argument that men can code better because they have the "intelectual, rational, algorithmic" skills...
I have read quite a lot about psychology, sociology, biology and the sciences in between (sociobiology).
The topic is very complex and discussing such a topic on a mailing list is IMHO inappropriate. If you're really interested in that kind of stuff, I can highly recommend "Why men don't listen and women can't read maps" by Barbara and Allan Pease. It is written in an understandable language for people without scientific background and non-native speakers.
Bye, Christian
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Hi all,
I'm sorry for being off-topic (this is not a FSFE problem but a much more general one), but here's my point of view as a woman:
if there aren't any more women is because they don't want to join, period; this is simplistic, and one could go into Freudian and sociological explanations that could tell a lot
Judging from my experience, the reason why there are so few women working in technical professions (and that includes, of course, programming) is that we are conditioned into thinking that this is man's stuff... You may say now that this is not true, and that women nowadays have equal rights and so on, but on a very basic, human-to-human level, there are many differences. I remember very well when I was in kindergarten and deconstructed our electrical toy train to find out how it worked, and then the nanny told me "What kind of girl are you, huh? You can't possibly be interested in that sort of thing... Go play with the Barbie dolls..." Those are little things, but they add up... Society's view of what a girl/woman is supposed to be like, be interested in, etc. probably gives many females the impression that being interested in tech stuff is a Bad Thing... most of them don't consciously realise that, but many (of course not all!) do turn away from their initial interest.
Beside that, there *are* many prejudices against women working as programmers, even though nearly all men deny that. Everybody will tell you: "Why, no problem, you are a woman, that does not mean you are less competent", but most of them still look at your work differently, and even when they come to accept you, it's more like "ok, she is good EVEN THOUGH she is a woman", and never like a normal thing... I do not blame men (most women themselves have the same prejudices), but that's how it is... (at least that's how I have experienced it on my job as a web developer and network administrator; and I want to stress here that I had a very good working relationship with my colleages in general).
And going back to FSFE: if we could actively set a positive example of respecting women on an equal base, that would of course be a great thing (I am not saying it is not being done at the moment; I am talking about actively promoting those ideas).
My best regards, gpg - public key 0x1FE281EB karin "kyrah" kosina http://kyrah.net http://the.system.at +-----------------------------------><---------------------------------+ [ please sign the petition against software patents at ] [ http://petition.eurolinux.org ]
I made a mistake earlier by making a sweeping generalistion (oops). I should know better,and have written better. My apologies for this.
On Thu, 10 May 2001, karin kosina wrote:
Judging from my experience, the reason why there are so few women working in technical professions (and that includes, of course, programming) is that we are conditioned into thinking that this is man's stuff...
I think that this is what I've been seeing when I talk with people on this subject. *Especially* when those people were women.
Try it sometime. Ask some random people "Should there be more female programmers?".
Pay attention to how people answer. Especially somewhat older women.
So how do we fix it?
Well, apparently lots of people have this perception that women only like to do things that contain lots of <insert your favorite sweeping generalisation of the day>.
So what's wrong with subverting these perceptions to our own goal? ;-)
read you soon, Kim Bruning
I'm not evil, just ... differently motivated!
On Thu, 10 May 2001, Kim Bruning (seperate for lists) wrote:
On Thu, 10 May 2001, karin kosina wrote:
Judging from my experience, the reason why there are so few women working in technical professions (and that includes, of course, programming) is that we are conditioned into thinking that this is man's stuff...
I think that this is what I've been seeing when I talk with people on this subject. *Especially* when those people were women.
That's the odd bit that struck me as well. One thing for consideration, though: The professional group of computer programmers doesn't strike me as one that discourages women to join. This is not to say that a woman entering the field does not run into problems with prejudice: They do, but generally not from their peers but rather from managers, customers and other outsiders. The male programmers mostly aren't into this "I don't think you can do this 'cuz you are a girl" trip, again at least not in my experience. Given this observation, I find it hard to conclude other than that the factual _work_ just doesn't seem to attract females as much. If this is true, then there is there really a problem that we can fix?
Try it sometime. Ask some random people "Should there be more female programmers?".
I would say 'Yes', but as I outlined above, my opinion is not what matters here. I think the workplace would be a lot nicer if it were more diverse. But as a male, the only thing I really can say is that women should be doing whatever it is they enjoy doing most.
Pay attention to how people answer. Especially somewhat older women.
This gives hope for a changing perception, where younger females have already been less pre-programmed with ideas and imagery about what's within their reach. Who knows, in a couple of generations we will have done away with all this perceptual hogwash :).
So how do we fix it?
Well, apparently lots of people have this perception that women only like to do things that contain lots of <insert your favorite sweeping generalisation of the day>.
So what's wrong with subverting these perceptions to our own goal? ;-)
Nothing as such, but it's an agenda possibly bigger than that of promoting free software. Stating that the percentage of women working in the field would influence the state of free software would be sexist in a way; Since men and women are equally capable, the percentages should not matter, right?
Cheers, Pi
On Thu, 10 May 2001, Pim van Riezen wrote:
On Thu, 10 May 2001, Kim Bruning (seperate for lists) wrote:
So what's wrong with subverting these perceptions to our own goal? ;-)
Nothing as such, but it's an agenda possibly bigger than that of promoting free software. Stating that the percentage of women working in the field would influence the state of free software would be sexist in a way; Since men and women are equally capable, the percentages should not matter, right?
Sounds fair to me. I'll rest my case here then.
Two things may still need to be discussed: 1. What do we answer if anyone asks "Why are there so few women in the FSFE?" (this is a marginally interesting question)
2. I want, nay, *demand* some kind of vindication on the beard thing! Contrary to popular belief, we Bearded Programmers WIth Long And Messy Hair(tm) are actually quite sane, ordinary people. Bwahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
read you soon, Kim Bruning.
"Madness is rare in individuals, but in groups, parties, nations, and ages it is the rule." -Friedrich Nietzsche
El Thu, May 10, 2001 at 05:09:26PM +0200, Pim van Riezen deia:
Nothing as such, but it's an agenda possibly bigger than that of promoting free software. Stating that the percentage of women working in the field would influence the state of free software would be sexist in a way; Since men and women are equally capable, the percentages should not matter, right?
Please correct me if my logic is wrong or sexist, but considering the fact that approximately half of the population is women and half is men, the fact that there are less women than men programming free software (and nobody seems to deny that) may or may not have a reason (I tend to think there must be a reason). If there is a reason (if there is something in society or whatever) and we can fix it somehow, then we may have more people writing free software.
To say it in other words: If there are 80 men and 20 women writing free software and we change it to 50 men and 50 women we have gained nothing (in the amount, quality, etc. of free software, although I would possibly prefer this 50/50 for some feeling of fairness), but since the new women wouldn't probably stop the men from writing free software, we should try to see if there is anything that can be done to have 80 men and 80 women programming free software.
I don't mean that this should be the main goal of the FSFE or even that there is anything the FSFE could do even if they wanted to, but I'm just saying that any improvement in this area might have a positive impact in free software. Of course having more poor people getting more money so that they are able to afford computers and start hacking would also help, and in general, anything that improves the world improves free software, because free software is part of the world.
But since there are other organizations pursuing those goals, maybe the FSFE does not need to aim at fixing everything wrong in the world. What I mean is: 1.- The low proportion of women in free software is a problem for free software and we all should be aware of it. Keeping it in mind may help to avoid making it worse and helping people trying to solve it. 2.- Probably it is a problem that the FSFE does not want to or cannot attack because it is not particular to free software, as many other problems.
Hi Xavier,
Xavier Drudis Ferran wrote:
Please correct me if my logic is wrong or sexist, but considering the fact that approximately half of the population is women and half is men, the fact that there are less women than men programming free software (and nobody seems to deny that) may or may not have a reason (I tend to think there must be a reason). If there is a reason (if there is something in society or whatever) and we can fix it somehow, then we may have more people writing free software.
There are a number of reasons. It's a complex topic, so I don't elaborate on all the details. There are even purely biological reasons which make me think that 50/50 is impossible.
But there is something the male crowd could do. Evidently, women think more in terms of cooperation than of confrontation. So if you want to have them around, you'd better be nice and treat them well, offering help and cooperation. There is a big part in the geek community (intersecting with the Free Software community) which is very offensive towards women. They'd better be silent.
I see a very good chance for us. FSF people are strongly cooperation-oriented. So if we can show this cooperation to the "outer world", women will come here more than to the proprietarists. Beat me, but IMHO the latter have a stronger tendency towards sexism. A friend of mine was the only girl at a big German IT company; she quit because she was treated as if she was dumb.
But since there are other organizations pursuing those goals, maybe the FSFE does not need to aim at fixing everything wrong in the world. What I mean is: 1.- The low proportion of women in free software is a problem for free software and we all should be aware of it. Keeping it in mind may help to avoid making it worse and helping people trying to solve it. 2.- Probably it is a problem that the FSFE does not want to or cannot attack because it is not particular to free software, as many other problems.
The low proportion of women in information technology is a general problem, that's true.
I think that there are already organizations that want to help girls and women into the technology field. Some know how to do it. If they're not supported by proprietarists, it could be linked from fsfeurope.org. Others don't know how to do it... Does anybody remember the painfully pink Girls4IT homepage of a certain German ministry? :^> I don't think they understand that stereotypes frighten away.
Bye, Christian
Wow, guess I proved it with a case in point, all by accident. :-) Isn't life wonderful?
On Thu, 10 May 2001, Frederico [ISO-8859-1] Mu�oz wrote:
Kim Bruning (seperate for lists) wrote:
(...) void FSF::female_participants() { (...)
In any case, this does seem to indicate that woman should definately be able to programme. I would think that this should be *especially* true in the case of Free Software, where intuition, communication, and social skills are very important.
So why aren't there more female free software programmers? }
Eh, the problem is, by relating intutition, communication and social skills you have made a discriminating remark ;)
You have a point! Let me rephrase that:
PC version: There a question of perception by some people certain areas of expertise in which they may or may not feel that they may or may not be capable of, depending on the people in question.
The subject area in question is actually quite suited to all persons of all ages, sexes, races, persuasions, and other groups, catagories or even non-catagories mentioned or not mentioned here.
These subjects or areas of expertise should be revealed to be as all inclusive as they really are.
Executive summary:
Human beings can programme. Why don't we just tell everyone? ;-)
read you soon, Kim Bruning
Oops.
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 01:43:50PM +0200, Kim Bruning (seperate for lists) wrote:
So why aren't there more female free software programmers?
Did I miss a post talking about the fact that free software is a lot of time spent outside working hours and that, due to obsolete habits, women still have less time for it?
Anne
On Fri, 11 May 2001, Anne POSSOZ wrote:
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 01:43:50PM +0200, Kim Bruning (seperate for lists) wrote:
So why aren't there more female free software programmers?
Did I miss a post talking about the fact that free software is a lot of time spent outside working hours and that, due to obsolete habits, women still have less time for it?
Well, ok, but please also read the other posts on this subject.
Did you notice?
<person> states that <class of person> can't do <something perceived as difficult or time consuming> because <sweeping generalisation>.
It's a slightly extended "fill in the blanks" form to the one I made earlier. It's really typical, but it's also important to realise that it is *wrong*. It's the response of someone who has been conditioned to believe things in this field. I recently fell for this trap too, so it's nothing to be ashamed of. ^^;; (or maybe it is :-P )
But guess what? It *must* be wrong, since people of all ages races sexes classes and whatnot are actually out there doing anything they like (including the coding of free software) , right as we speak!
Summary: Any human being can do anything they want (within the limits of the laws of physics, perhaps), if they are willing and motivated enough to do it.
Yes I know : it's really cliche and all, but that doesn't make it less true. :-)
Read you soon, Kim Bruning.
Don't trust reality. After all, it's only a collective hunch.