It seems that there is a hostility towards FSF and the understandable
You seem to think that some Debian developpers and/or leaders are against the FSF. It seems some Debian developpers and/or leaders think the FSF is against them.
This is becoming a sterile discussion. Why not meet the Debian people, and exchange arguments directly ?
Now, a personal question: would you be satisfied:
- if Debian dropped non-free and contrib
- then another group came along and started to support non-free and contrib by itself, as an add-on to Debian
this would mean that on the paper Debian would be a completely free distribution, which could of course, with a third-party extension, be a real-world distribution that many users will choose and that many other distribution can build interesting frameworks on (e.g. Ubuntu).
If this suffices to make the FSF happy, probably it could even be done.
On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:56:54 +0200, Marc SCHAEFER wrote:
This is becoming a sterile discussion. Why not meet the Debian people, and exchange arguments directly ?
I'm not arguing for the sake of the arguments. And there's nothing to argue -- if people think that non-free software is an acceptable thing, they cannot be convinced otherwise with dry arguments. Either you feel it or you do not.
Now, a personal question: would you be satisfied:
- if Debian dropped non-free and contrib
Yes, it is a dream of mine.
- then another group came along and started to support non-free and contrib by itself, as an add-on to Debian
Everybody is free to work on packaging proprietary software. The problem is that the Debian Project should not endorse it. Also, I don't think it's an add-on, I think it is a subtract-on.
this would mean that on the paper Debian would be a completely free distribution,
Here lies the difference between us. The issue is not to satisfy some requerements "on paper", it is much more important to do this intentionally, with full conscience. In fact Debian tries to do this "on paper" -- they claim that non-free and contrib are not part of the distribution, while you can download such software from their servers, the mirrors, it is included in the release process, the BTS/PTS, all official resources, etc.
which could of course, with a third-party extension, be a real-world distribution that many users will choose and that many other distribution can build interesting frameworks on (e.g. Ubuntu).
In our Free World there is no place for non-free software. We will continue the struggle until our world becomes the real world. If users choose such a distribution, that means that our task is far from finished -- we have to educate these users. If enough people learn about these issues and start fighting for it, freedom will prevail.
If this suffices to make the FSF happy, probably it could even be done.
Note that I have absolutely no authority to speak on behalf of the FSF, even for FSF Bulgaria. I am expressing personal opinion only.
- if Debian dropped non-free and contrib
- then another group came along and started to support non-free and contrib by itself, as an add-on to Debian
I'd add this to the list: add back free documentation.
Programs without proper documentation are almost useless, and excluding documentation that is free is even worse. :(