Hi Jos! On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 12:13:20PM +0200, josX wrote: [... lots of interesting points to think about skipped...]
My proposal for the "organaization" of the FSF(E)/free(dom) software:
- There will be no decisions, there will only be personal initiative.
- There will be no concentration of power, there will only be personal action.
- There will be no official style or logo, there will only be available certain beautifull things to use or not use according personal preference if someone takes the initiative to make them.
I do see one serious problem with this approach. The current political systems work in a way, that you need some sort of organized lobby. You will not be recognised as an individual. That means, you cannot change something. The idea behind the FSF and the FSFE is to provide exactly this kind of lobby as far as I understand it.
I see. hmmm. Well, as long as we have to live with these politics, it may indeed be a good idea to have some org they can relate/speak to, since that indeed seems the only way they can view things.
structures that some seem to want to erect around that which is by nature an anarchy. A working thriving anarchy I must say!!!!
Well, it will remain like that. People will write and contribute software, if they want to. They will do this without accepting any deadline or pressure. That's not the point. The organisation is needed to explain this to those, who are not part of it. Especially people, bodies and companies that influence decisions and laws in Europe.
Ok, so it will be a self-imposed "task-force" that will take upon it the actions of forming a `picture' of free(dom) software in a simulated org-situation, so politics can be influenced for the better. So it will seem to be an org from the non-understanding outside, but it will be a simple group with no power or control inside (since that cannot and must not exist). If this is going to be it, it is good I guess :-).
What would happen with communications with the press? The press can simply go to some projects and ask the people themselves instead of going to the ""official director of the core-team Europe".
Talk with someone working for the press. They would never do that. They are already flooded with enough press statements every day, that they just choose from what they get. This is usually more than they can handle before the next news. So it is your job to send something to them, if you want to get recognised. Otherwise you will be ignored. That's why we need the FSFE to _actively_ promote free software.
So, I would claim that the FSF-E is not representing and cannot represent the free(dom) software movement, especially because it is a anarchy-based movement. Therefore it cannot say this or that about free-software without
The FSFE should not represent free software, it should promote it. That's a different thing.
Do I want a revolution? Shure I do, but I am only one voice, and I don't
That's exactly the point: You are only one voice. The same is true for all of us here. That's why we try to gather in some way to become something, that is not just one unheard voice. We try to build something, that is recognized and heard. And that's why we need the FSFE.
Ah, that makes sence. Can we be democratic then pleaze ;-)!!
to head anything (but myself). About leaving people in the rain that want to work within free-software and make money: you may note I said it is fine, it only should not be /actively/ encouraged, only made possible so it does not contaminate free-software. This can then be seen as a gradual step towards total freeness, or not, time will tell. I am not against that, I only think an organization as the FSF(E) should not /actively/ get involved with it, it should limit itself to setting borders around it so we are not destroyed by it.
I agree with you. The FSFE should be very careful with comments regarding commercialisation of free software. It should clearly express, that the main issue is free software. If it is necessary to attract money with it to create more free software, that's OK. But not more. I think, this is a very crucial point for many authors of free software. A statement like "We want people to make as much money as possible of free software" should always be commented in a way, that this is only ment as a method of creating more good and free software. Maybe that's an important message to the core team of the FSFE. I would advise to avoid such statements altogether. It's too easy to understand it in the wrong way.
I sleep better already...
with this post. Converting people is always a bad thing, making people think and see other options not, and I want to do the latter only, not the former.
Yes, that's definitely the right approach. Bye, Marc
Alrighty, if that is going to be /it/, I'm for it. And `money' and power-concentrations are so dangerous they simply should not exist methinks! What about heavy democratization....... we don't need no power-structere do we!, we are all self-motivated etc. why should we need things like `core' teams and such stuff, and "lower"-orgs in countries. We are grown-up enough to have a totally flat structure, not?!
And we don't have to differ anything from FSF in my opinion, that will only weaken us. We know we can trust RMS for example, we should not do away with such a "help" structure already good in place. There seems to be LOTS and LOTS of discussions goin on within for instance Debian and Gnu, almost to the point they are "discussion-based". I think we can be "action-based". Want an Logo? start designing! want a website? start writing html! Want a standard-press focal-point? start gathering views from within the "movement", and try to present them honestly, and in a way the local-press can relato to (may differ from country-to-country and from medium-to-medium). That is a lot of work, but if you are for instance only on you own, just start with the local etc. That would be more usefull than setting up all kinds of orgs and a mother-org and all that drag. Want influence politics? sent pamflettes, print T-shirts and sell them...
Action-based, not discussion-based. What about it! The only discussion-item needed would be "we don't need a power-structure to control us", and "if you think that is needed, get to it".
Would shure free up a lot of energy if you ask me :). Logo? take your pick for that T-shirt/web-page/letter-head/*, we got several of them! Influence politics? yeah, here are some prints you can put on T-shirts and sell at the mall/*... make shure you choose high-quality shirts, we don't people getting the wrong ideas...
And about talking to the press: I have my doubts about the effectiveness of that. What are they going to report. T-shirts and free cd to schools is going to do a hell of a lot more if you ask me!
Jos --
On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 03:01:40PM +0200, josX wrote:
Ok, so it will be a self-imposed "task-force" that will take upon it the actions of forming a `picture' of free(dom) software in a simulated org-situation, so politics can be influenced for the better. So it will
Exactly.
seem to be an org from the non-understanding outside, but it will be a simple group with no power or control inside (since that cannot and must not exist). If this is going to be it, it is good I guess :-).
Yes, the FSFE has no control over who writes which software and when. This is the decision of the individual. It might influence some development by raising funds to pay programmers to contribute to some special free software packages the FSFE considers important. Or in other words: It might pay for some free software to be written. But that's the only way it can actually get involved in the creation of free software. This is by the way the same as it is for the FSF in the USA.
Ah, that makes sence. Can we be democratic then pleaze ;-)!!
There was a mail from Georg a while ago on this question. He expressed the opinion, that a democratic organisation would not be as stable and long lasting as a non-democratic one. Please check his mail in the archive (I hope that an archive of this list exists...) for details. In practice, I think that decisions will be made quite democratic, because most issues are discussed on this mailing list _before_ the FSFE makes a decision. So I would expect, that the decision mirrors in most cases the opinion of the majority of the people on this list. Obviously this depends on the members of the core team and thus they decided to be very careful when appointing new members of the FSFE. I personally think, that this is a sensible approach, but I can well understand, that not everyone will agree here.
and free software. Maybe that's an important message to the core team of the FSFE. I would advise to avoid such statements altogether. It's too easy to understand it in the wrong way.
I sleep better already...
:-)
Alrighty, if that is going to be /it/, I'm for it. And `money' and power-concentrations are so dangerous they simply should not exist methinks!
I agree in principal, but I know that you cannot avoid this in reality. A society without them is instable against criminals, who only take, but never give.
What about heavy democratization....... we don't need no power-structere do we!, we are all self-motivated etc. why should we need things like `core' teams and such stuff, and "lower"-orgs in countries. We are grown-up enough to have a totally flat structure, not?!
As I wrote, we do not need this to write free software. But we need it as an interface to the "outside world", because we wouldn't be recognised otherwise. The core team is mainly to coordinate and the country chapters are there, because of the different legislation among the european countries.
And we don't have to differ anything from FSF in my opinion, that will
Apart from the differences imposed by the different laws in Europe compared to the USA.
only weaken us. We know we can trust RMS for example, we should not do away with such a "help" structure already good in place. There seems
You will see, that the FSF tries to appear together with the FSFE whenever possible. The main difference is a legal point and maybe a different political attitude towards free software here in Europe compared to the USA. That's the reason, why the FSF couldn't do the job.
to be LOTS and LOTS of discussions goin on within for instance Debian and Gnu, almost to the point they are "discussion-based". I think we can be "action-based". Want an Logo? start designing! want a website? start
Exactly this problem is one reason for not forming a radical democratic organisation. You avoid such deadlocks, because the core team can decide after one month of discussion on the list, that this is enough now.
writing html! Want a standard-press focal-point? start gathering views from within the "movement", and try to present them honestly, and in a way the local-press can relato to (may differ from country-to-country and from medium-to-medium). That is a lot of work, but if you are for instance only on you own, just start with the local etc. That would be more usefull than setting up all kinds of orgs and a mother-org and all that drag. Want influence politics? sent pamflettes, print T-shirts and sell them...
Advertisment is far more efficient, if it is coordinated. Especially if you can share ideas, leaflets and T-Shirts across Europe. It is more efficient and cheaper, if I let a company produce 5000 FSFE T-shirts and send them to everyone interested in Europe than 10 people in 10 countries ordering 500 each. If you do not coordinate the work, you will also face duplication of effort, because several people end up doing the same thing.
Action-based, not discussion-based. What about it!
Well, yes that's the idea of this list too. If you want to do something, just announce it on the list. And you will find, that you get good advice (which will save you a lot of work) and probably that other people want to help you. Give it a try!
The only discussion-item needed would be "we don't need a power-structure to control us", and "if you think that is needed, get to it".
I object against the word "control". We need a structure to coordinate our efforts. So "coordinate" is the proper term.
Would shure free up a lot of energy if you ask me :). Logo? take your pick for that T-shirt/web-page/letter-head/*, we got several of them!
Sure, you could do that. But the impact is much stronger, if people demonstrating for free software in Spain would wear exactly the same T-shirts on TV as people in the UK and in France. Don't you think so? It's again this: You're not alone, you're only one of a huge community. This message must come across, because then it is obvious, that you cannot be ignored.
Influence politics? yeah, here are some prints you can put on T-shirts and sell at the mall/*... make shure you choose high-quality shirts, we don't people getting the wrong ideas...
Make sure you sell the same T-shirts everywhere in Europe. That would surely impress quite a lot of people. By the way: Anybody volunteers to check about T-shirts? I think, that is a really good idea.
And about talking to the press: I have my doubts about the effectiveness of that. What are they going to report. T-shirts and free cd to schools is going to do a hell of a lot more if you ask me!
Only if the teachers have read about it in the press, they will give it a try. Otherwise they will most likely just throw the CDs in the next bin. Give it a try: Burn some Debian CDs and send them to some schools local to where you live. See, what the reaction is like. You will then agree, that good contacts to the press are important. And again, this can only be achieved, if you are not an individual, but a representative of a larger group.
Bye, Marc _______________________________________________________________________________
email: marc@greenie.net email: m.a.eberhard@aston.ac.uk, web: http://www.aston.ac.uk/~eberhama/
Hello Marc!
In jueves 03 de Mayo de 2001 at 20:28, Marc Eberhard wrote to josX:
Make sure you sell the same T-shirts everywhere in Europe. That would surely impress quite a lot of people. By the way: Anybody volunteers to check about T-shirts? I think, that is a really good idea.
I'm just willing to have one! But maybe we'll wait to have a final logo and all that first...
Regards,
Eneko Lacunza Enlar/RgBa : Where all begins
... What is Linux? The power on your hands.
enlar@iname.com http://www.euskalnet.net/enlar