On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 03:01:40PM +0200, josX wrote:
Ok, so it will be a self-imposed "task-force" that will take upon it the actions of forming a `picture' of free(dom) software in a simulated org-situation, so politics can be influenced for the better. So it will
Exactly.
seem to be an org from the non-understanding outside, but it will be a simple group with no power or control inside (since that cannot and must not exist). If this is going to be it, it is good I guess :-).
Yes, the FSFE has no control over who writes which software and when. This is the decision of the individual. It might influence some development by raising funds to pay programmers to contribute to some special free software packages the FSFE considers important. Or in other words: It might pay for some free software to be written. But that's the only way it can actually get involved in the creation of free software. This is by the way the same as it is for the FSF in the USA.
Ah, that makes sence. Can we be democratic then pleaze ;-)!!
There was a mail from Georg a while ago on this question. He expressed the opinion, that a democratic organisation would not be as stable and long lasting as a non-democratic one.
I cannot live with this.
Please check his mail in the archive (I
hope that an archive of this list exists...) for details. In practice, I think that decisions will be made quite democratic, because most issues are discussed on this mailing list _before_ the FSFE makes a decision. So I would expect, that the decision mirrors in most cases the opinion of the majority of the people on this list. Obviously this depends on the members of the core team and thus they decided to be very careful when appointing new members of the FSFE. I personally think, that this is a sensible approach, but I can well understand, that not everyone will agree here.
and free software. Maybe that's an important message to the core team of the FSFE. I would advise to avoid such statements altogether. It's too easy to understand it in the wrong way.
I sleep better already...
:-)
Alrighty, if that is going to be /it/, I'm for it. And `money' and power-concentrations are so dangerous they simply should not exist methinks!
I agree in principal, but I know that you cannot avoid this in reality. A society without them is instable against criminals, who only take, but never give.
No, you don't get it completely: if we are `action' based, there can be no criminals because we are all doing something usefull, so any lazy people will simply be noticed immideately because they only eat the pizza, but never do anything usefull (giving orders is not usefull IMO).
What about heavy democratization....... we don't need no power-structere do we!, we are all self-motivated etc. why should we need things like `core' teams and such stuff, and "lower"-orgs in countries. We are grown-up enough to have a totally flat structure, not?!
As I wrote, we do not need this to write free software. But we need it as an interface to the "outside world", because we wouldn't be recognised otherwise. The core team is mainly to coordinate and the country chapters are there, because of the different legislation among the european countries.
I see no contradiction: we can appear to the outside as a standard org, while actually be completely flat.
And we don't have to differ anything from FSF in my opinion, that will
Apart from the differences imposed by the different laws in Europe compared to the USA.
only weaken us. We know we can trust RMS for example, we should not do away with such a "help" structure already good in place. There seems
You will see, that the FSF tries to appear together with the FSFE whenever possible. The main difference is a legal point and maybe a different political attitude towards free software here in Europe compared to the USA. That's the reason, why the FSF couldn't do the job.
to be LOTS and LOTS of discussions goin on within for instance Debian and Gnu, almost to the point they are "discussion-based". I think we can be "action-based". Want an Logo? start designing! want a website? start
Exactly this problem is one reason for not forming a radical democratic organisation. You avoid such deadlocks, because the core team can decide after one month of discussion on the list, that this is enough now.
No you don't understand again: there are not going to be deadlocks on anything because nobody can tell anybody else what to do or what not to. Everybody will just follow their own path, and coordinate it between them if need be or if that seems fun.
writing html! Want a standard-press focal-point? start gathering views from within the "movement", and try to present them honestly, and in a way the local-press can relato to (may differ from country-to-country and from medium-to-medium). That is a lot of work, but if you are for instance only on you own, just start with the local etc. That would be more usefull than setting up all kinds of orgs and a mother-org and all that drag. Want influence politics? sent pamflettes, print T-shirts and sell them...
Advertisment is far more efficient, if it is coordinated. Especially if you can share ideas, leaflets and T-Shirts across Europe. It is more efficient and cheaper, if I let a company produce 5000 FSFE T-shirts and send them to everyone interested in Europe than 10 people in 10 countries ordering 500 each. If you do not coordinate the work, you will also face duplication of effort, because several people end up doing the same thing.
No, because in your scheme there will be a control entity, and this entity will not do anything usefull on itself and be a waste of energy therefore. And there need not be inefficienty in producing manny T-shirts if you erect a simple forum for letting people of different parts in Europe discuss when they have the same initiative (T-shirts) and want to check out with eachother if they can work together on the particular issue. No need for any control entity whatsoever. If a control entity needs no keep track of all these kinds of things in all countries... it will soon become mega-large, and combersome, and all for no use (only presumed use, but not actual use in my opinion, only drag).
Action-based, not discussion-based. What about it!
Well, yes that's the idea of this list too. If you want to do something, just announce it on the list. And you will find, that you get good advice (which will save you a lot of work) and probably that other people want to help you. Give it a try!
No you don't understand what I meant with `action' see above too... All that's needed to coordinate is a usenet group, or a couple of them or something and let things organize themselve, everybody is self-motivated here so it should be no problem, it should be a thrill even to work together with people from other countries on a particular thing, and later with others on something else.... will be great!!
The only discussion-item needed would be "we don't need a power-structure to control us", and "if you think that is needed, get to it".
I object against the word "control". We need a structure to coordinate our efforts. So "coordinate" is the proper term.
ok, coordinate...
Would shure free up a lot of energy if you ask me :). Logo? take your pick for that T-shirt/web-page/letter-head/*, we got several of them!
Sure, you could do that. But the impact is much stronger, if people demonstrating for free software in Spain would wear exactly the same T-shirts on TV as people in the UK and in France. Don't you think so? It's again this: You're not alone, you're only one of a huge community. This message must come across, because then it is obvious, that you cannot be ignored.
I disagree totally!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It would just seem to be a uniform bunch of sad teenagers wanting to `belong'. If everybody has different T-shirt's in different colors and drawings/pictures, like some explosion of creativity... THAT will impress the people... not some uniform gray mass of nobodies....
Influence politics? yeah, here are some prints you can put on T-shirts and sell at the mall/*... make shure you choose high-quality shirts, we don't people getting the wrong ideas...
Make sure you sell the same T-shirts everywhere in Europe. That would surely
I think not.
impress quite a lot of people. By the way: Anybody volunteers to check about T-shirts? I think, that is a really good idea.
And about talking to the press: I have my doubts about the effectiveness of that. What are they going to report. T-shirts and free cd to schools is going to do a hell of a lot more if you ask me!
Only if the teachers have read about it in the press, they will give it a try. Otherwise they will most likely just throw the CDs in the next bin. Give it a try: Burn some Debian CDs and send them to some schools local to where you live. See, what the reaction is like. You will then agree, that good contacts to the press are important. And again, this can only be achieved, if you are not an individual, but a representative of a larger group. Bye, Marc
I disagree, I think the media will have little to no impact. This might seem strange, but these media-types don't give a damn about Linux, and on a slow day they are just going to write it all sucks big time because they think it is controversial to say.
Jos --
Hi Jos!
On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 09:50:04PM +0200, josX wrote:
There was a mail from Georg a while ago on this question. He expressed the opinion, that a democratic organisation would not be as stable and long lasting as a non-democratic one.
I cannot live with this.
Why? What are you afraid of exactly?
No, you don't get it completely: if we are `action' based, there can be no criminals because we are all doing something usefull, so any lazy people will simply be noticed immideately because they only eat the pizza, but never do anything usefull (giving orders is not usefull IMO).
And then? What do you want to do with them? The problem is not spotting these people, the problem is, that you cannot do anything against it. So more and more people will see, that they can get pizza without giving anything back. This process will slowly subvert the enthusiastics and convert them into lazy people too. You end up with nobody doing anything anymore.
otherwise. The core team is mainly to coordinate and the country chapters are there, because of the different legislation among the european countries.
I see no contradiction: we can appear to the outside as a standard org, while actually be completely flat.
You will always need to share the work somehow. Take the FSFE structure just as technical approach to share the work properly, so that each group can work with a high efficiency.
No you don't understand again: there are not going to be deadlocks on anything because nobody can tell anybody else what to do or what not to. Everybody will just follow their own path, and coordinate it between them if need be or if that seems fun.
My experience is, that some people tend to discuss forever. So I doubt, that this way would really work.
No, because in your scheme there will be a control entity, and this entity
Please... "coordinate" not "control". I didn't write anything about controlling something. I'm only talking about coordinating things.
will not do anything usefull on itself and be a waste of energy therefore.
Usually the people coordinating something (e.g. T-shirts) are also the ones to do the work. So they do something useful.
No you don't understand what I meant with `action' see above too... All that's needed to coordinate is a usenet group, or a couple of them or something and let things organize themselve, everybody is self-motivated here so it should be no problem, it should be a thrill even to work together with people from other countries on a particular thing, and later with others on something else.... will be great!!
Well, that's what it is already. It works fine for writing free software, but the industry has got that point too and is using it's influence on politicians to try to push free software off the field. That's why we need to do political work now. We have to prevent, that laws are passed through parliaments, that would stop us from working together in this way. It is the time now, to defend the freedom we have. This is nothing we have granted forever. We have to become active to keep it this way.
Sure, you could do that. But the impact is much stronger, if people demonstrating for free software in Spain would wear exactly the same T-shirts on TV as people in the UK and in France. Don't you think so? It's again this: You're not alone, you're only one of a huge community. This message must come across, because then it is obvious, that you cannot be ignored.
I disagree totally!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It would just seem to be a uniform bunch of sad teenagers wanting to `belong'. If everybody has different T-shirt's in different colors and drawings/pictures, like some explosion of creativity... THAT will impress the people... not some uniform gray mass of nobodies....
Hmmm, would be interesting if we have some psychologist around, who could answer this question. Would be interesting to know indeed, what would make a bigger impression.
I disagree, I think the media will have little to no impact. This might
Unfortunately they do. Most people do not actively discuss these things, but simply make the opinion expressed in the newspapers their own. Keep in mind, that we are a rather small minority of extremely concerned and critical people. We are not representative in any way for joe user or joe-not-even-yet-online.
seem strange, but these media-types don't give a damn about Linux, and on a slow day they are just going to write it all sucks big time because they think it is controversial to say.
It might seem strange to you, but I explained in one of my previous mails, how they decide, what to feature. If we don't supply them constantly with news, this situation will not change. We need to be aware of this. The press doesn't look around. They just look at what arrives at their door on its own.
Bye, Marc _______________________________________________________________________________
email: marc@greenie.net email: m.a.eberhard@aston.ac.uk, web: http://www.aston.ac.uk/~eberhama/