How conveniant this `T-shirt' initiative pops-up on the list, just when we talking about what really matters.
What an interesting coinsidence!
oh, no, sorry.... I just got a little distracted from goals and target, sorry, blinders keep falling off....
Jos --
You're quite right; the T-shirt thing is a pure sideline, and rather off-topic for this list. If it's ok with everybody, I'll take it off this list, maybe somebody would kindly put together some sort of list for requests, suggestions and so on; the commercial side of things doesn't need to be entirely on the discussion list. However, I will volunteer to get the T-shirt thing fixed if people want this. Who's in Official Control of FSFE commercial sidelines, and could they fix a separate list from here?
Otherwise, I'd rather see a bunch of annoyed answers leading to a six-week thread war, than I would a sort of stunned silence... Or have we elsewhere, previously, discussed the points that came up?
Stuff like
* what /are/ the short-term aims of the fsfe? Establishing GPL for each country, first? Then what?
* What about long-term aims?
* Is the FSFE structure good enough? What's wrong with it? What do we need to fix? What about the sub-FSF chapters? Do geeks really fit into a hierarchy? (hint: no)
* Policy on finances, financial gain, industry freebies...
* Exact structure of the FSFE, granted that those in power have absolute authority. How 'reachable' an organisation should the FSFE be? What do you do if you have this Great Idea you want to put before them? The FSFE need to listen, or they'll end up out of touch...
* What about your average idiot, who thinks Windows is complicated? I am sorry to say it, but we've been working on it for several years and we STILL don't have a version of GNU/Linux that installs and /does stuff/ painlessly. Is that an FSF(E) problem? Do we care about Software For Your Average Idiot? or do we tell them to go hang?... or do we grit our teeth, take a copy of The Inmates Are Running The Asylum, and work out what they /do/ need?
* Directing software development. IMHO the things that GNU/Linux currently needs ought to be defined, decided upon, and integrated into Debian or whatever. No doubt Debian think this too, and are busy doing it. Is this at all a FSF(E) problem?
* What about community? Does the FSFE have interest in getting into establishing any LUG-style initiatives?
* If the free software community, what about trade union stuff, people being forced to sign NDAs then getting hobbled by them in their free software work? What about working out reasonable NDAs in the spirit of the GPL? (NDA==Non Disclosure Agreement)
* How about tracking evil DMCA-style laws in each country? That's an FSFE issue. Who does it? What do you do if you want to contribute info?
* To repeat myself once more, what about the whole damn woman issue? (And /be/ political, people, would you? This is a discussion list. If you think it's all a non-issue, say so)
* What about stuff like legal defence, patents, all that? Does the FSFE get into all that? How much?
* How about stuff like DVD regionality, and blah? Would the FSFE consider working out which countries having region-free DVD is legal in, to be part of their job? True, it's hardware, but it's ABOUT the freedom of individuals, and DeCSS is about software. I consider this to be a place that /somebody/ has to work in, if the word 'free' is to continue having meaning.
I noticed earlier that somebody has a .sig file asking what they'll do when their child asks them where they were when freedom of speech was taken away from the Internet. Well, that day is more or less here. Idiot companies are verging on the side of total corporate paranoia, attempting control of every media file out there. True, they won't stop the determined, but...
And there are things we can do. On all issues that threaten free software. Logos, believe me, are neither here nor there. And there's lots of things people can do, today, to help, and we're all sitting here discussing logos, when we should be ripping the legal throat out of immoral industry initiatives and Saving The World From The Evil Software Industry... (emphasis added)
All rather confusing, really
em
// OLDSIG "All bad art is the result of good intentions." - Oscar Wilde
/* START NEWSIG */ Processor: (n.) a device for converting sense to nonsense at the speed of electricity, or (rarely) the reverse. - Tonkin's First Computer Dictionary
On Wed, 9 May 2001, josX wrote:
How conveniant this `T-shirt' initiative pops-up on the list, just when we talking about what really matters.
What an interesting coinsidence!
oh, no, sorry.... I just got a little distracted from goals and target, sorry, blinders keep falling off....
Jos
Discussion mailing list Discussion@fsfeurope.org http://mailman.fsfeurope.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussion
E L Tonkin wrote:
You're quite right; the T-shirt thing is a pure sideline, and rather off-topic for this list.
I don't agree; the list as it stands is about fsfeurope discussion; since there isn't any other dedicated list I think it's on topic.
If it's ok with everybody, I'll take it off this list, maybe somebody would kindly put together some sort of list for requests, suggestions and so on; the commercial side of things doesn't need to be entirely on the discussion list.
Well, it's not as much commercial as it is of common interest to many ppl involved... and the ppl interested in the t-shirts are most likelly those that are list members.
However, I will volunteer to get the T-shirt thing fixed if people want this. Who's in Official Control of FSFE commercial sidelines, and could they fix a separate list from here?
Yes, if a separate list exists than it would be probably off-topic here... and even then only the specific details, the poll about interest would still be on-topic IMHO.
Otherwise, I'd rather see a bunch of annoyed answers leading to a six-week thread war, than I would a sort of stunned silence... Or have we elsewhere, previously, discussed the points that came up?
Stuff like
- what /are/ the short-term aims of the fsfe? Establishing GPL for each
country, first? Then what?
Well, my personal view is that the FSFE could be an organization akin to the FSF but adaptaded to Europe, where issues aroud free software, license issues, developers connections, commercial viability of free software, the GNU Project, etc would be discussed and the FSFE would in some sense in a position to represent free software as a whole in what respect the media, politicians, interested parts, etc.
- What about long-term aims?
Eh, this are long term aims ;)
- Is the FSFE structure good enough? What's wrong with it? What do we need
to fix? What about the sub-FSF chapters? Do geeks really fit into a hierarchy? (hint: no)
Well, the FSF proves otherwise, and it would be foolish not to draw from their experience. Eventually when common trust builds enough and involved ppl get to know each other the hierarchy will mean less... as it is I understand the need for the present setup.
- Policy on finances, financial gain, industry freebies...
Yes, nice ones, and topics in which I will only speak after seing some kind of initial statement ;)
- Exact structure of the FSFE, granted that those in power have absolute
authority. How 'reachable' an organisation should the FSFE be? What do you do if you have this Great Idea you want to put before them? The FSFE need to listen, or they'll end up out of touch...
Of course, the FSFE needs to listen, and listen really carefully; after all the FSFE must stay in touch with the common problems and emergent ones (the national chapters will help a lot on this). That doesn't exclude hierarchy and the need for a formal structure and associated powers.
- What about your average idiot, who thinks Windows is complicated? I am
sorry to say it, but we've been working on it for several years and we STILL don't have a version of GNU/Linux that installs and /does stuff/ painlessly. Is that an FSF(E) problem? Do we care about Software For Your Average Idiot? or do we tell them to go hang?... or do we grit our teeth, take a copy of The Inmates Are Running The Asylum, and work out what they /do/ need?
lol
That work is better left to the distributions if you ask me... but the FSFE is also about the promotion *and* development of Free Software, so you have a point. Still, I would not put specific things like that high on the list, but I'm open to suggestions on how the FSFE can help Linux-based GNU systems with specific problems.
- Directing software development. IMHO the things that GNU/Linux currently
needs ought to be defined, decided upon, and integrated into Debian or whatever. No doubt Debian think this too, and are busy doing it. Is this at all a FSF(E) problem?
First off, dont' forget the GNU system proper... GNU/Hurd is giving it's first steps and we are trying to have a woody release of it (off-topic, I know).
I have some reservations about direct involvement of the FSFE is specific matters like that... anyway, if it's feasible... The things that GNU/Linux needs vary wildly according to ppl and dists... We can take Debian as an example since Debian as the same spirit, but for example the things needed appear to be commercial software according to the number of CD's stuffed with proprietary software that many dists. ship and advertise as their main advantage. Now here is something the FSFE has something to do about ;)
- What about community? Does the FSFE have interest in getting into
establishing any LUG-style initiatives?
That would be nice, and I'n sure that some kind of annual general meeting and other meetings promoted by the local chapters would be nice; the FSFE IMHO could bring the free software message and spirit to lots of ppl, and activities like meetings, discussions, presence in exibitions, etc. would certainly be helpful...
- If the free software community, what about trade union stuff, people
being forced to sign NDAs then getting hobbled by them in their free software work? What about working out reasonable NDAs in the spirit of the GPL? (NDA==Non Disclosure Agreement)
Yes! The FSFE needs to be very active in that regard! That's the sort of thing that I see the FSFE doing a lot, mainly because that's the kind of stuff that get's passed by a lot of ppl.'Filling a gap' is a cliche, but...
- How about tracking evil DMCA-style laws in each country? That's an FSFE
issue. Who does it? What do you do if you want to contribute info?
DItto. Contact the FSFE. THings will probably have to be worked out as they appear though, it's a huge and complex list of possible actions and ways of doing things.
- To repeat myself once more, what about the whole damn woman issue? (And
/be/ political, people, would you? This is a discussion list. If you think it's all a non-issue, say so)
Who's that damn woman? ;)
Ehe, yes, well, I have no specific opinion on that one.
- What about stuff like legal defence, patents, all that? Does the
FSFE get into all that? How much?
Indeed; we here all the time that we must be prepared to defend the GPL on court... the FSFE must live up to that rally. Now, in what specific things the FSFE would have to go that long will probably depend a lot.
- How about stuff like DVD regionality, and blah? Would the FSFE consider
working out which countries having region-free DVD is legal in, to be part of their job? True, it's hardware, but it's ABOUT the freedom of individuals, and DeCSS is about software. I consider this to be a place that /somebody/ has to work in, if the word 'free' is to continue having meaning.
Don't know enough of this topic to have an opinion... but if it is about freedom in using software than it's FSFE business.
I noticed earlier that somebody has a .sig file asking what they'll do when their child asks them where they were when freedom of speech was taken away from the Internet. Well, that day is more or less here. Idiot companies are verging on the side of total corporate paranoia, attempting control of every media file out there. True, they won't stop the determined, but...
And there are things we can do. On all issues that threaten free software. Logos, believe me, are neither here nor there. And there's lots of things people can do, today, to help, and we're all sitting here discussing logos, when we should be ripping the legal throat out of immoral industry initiatives and Saving The World From The Evil Software Industry... (emphasis added)
All rather confusing, really
Eh, yes; I'm sorry if I wasn't very specific, but the sheer number of really usefull remarks you had was overwhelming, and to many of them I can only say abstract intentes; I can see exactly the kind of problems and discussions you are antecipating though, and it's indeed something we need to discuss a lot (and something the core team neads to clarify).
Best Regards,
fsm
-- Frederico Munoz fsmunoz@sdf.lonestar.org
Hello, E.L. and all,
E L Tonkin wrote on May 09, 2001 at 06:33PM +0100:
However, I will volunteer to get the T-shirt thing fixed if people want this.
Of course I am pleased you and so many others like my little drawing, but unfortunately, I have to say "no" to using my drafts on t-shirts.
The drafts are pixel graphics only and will look poor when printed. I do not want my name to be associated with poor-quality printing on t-shirts. I was already blamed for poor-quality printing of this draft on business cards and flyers.
João Miguel Neves wrote on May 09, 2001 at 08:48AM +0100:
On 09 May 2001 00:45:11 +0200, Bernhard Reiter wrote:
Up to now a couple of logos have been ruled out so far by members of the core team who feel strongly about not choosing such a logo:
I think you've just made a political error: you've ruled out this logos without any justification (at least in the view of anybody that didn't went to the meeting). Could you please correct that ?
It has not been discussed in the meeting, at least not while I was there (and I was in reach most of the time as one of the hosts). Nobody adressed me about the logo and told me he vetoed against it. President Georg, vice president Loic and French chancellor Frederic even distributed business cards with one of my "Europa and gnu" drafts (poorly printed) on it. It has already been used in presentations (http://www.gnu.org/people/greve/CeBIT2001/CeBIT2001.html) and flyers. The first time I officially heard it has been vetoed against was yesterday on this list.
I do not have a problem with my drafts being turned down in favor of someone elses (even though I do not like the boring stuff at http://www.gnu.org/people/greve/fsfe/ that seems to have been chosen instead). However, I certainly have a problem with how this whole issue has been handled. Take what you can get for free, use it as long as pleases you, even ask the author to do several more versions -- and 5 months later claim it sucks? Great. :-(
I had offered earlier to redo one of the drafts as high-quality vector graphics. However, I do not want to work for the garbage bin once more. I will only redo it as vector graphics if all FSFE core members agree to it, and especially those who vetoed against it as a logo agree that it is truly _desired_ to have it as t-shirt art. I do not want my work to be regarded as "Notstopfen" (stop-gap). I am willing to help the FSFE where help is required and appreciated, but I have better things to do than spending another couple of hours of unpaid labor on a t-shirt design which may be discarded, too.
I am very sorry to spoil the t-shirt project for the moment, especially since I think that having t-shirts for the LinuxTag in July would be nice. I hope you understand me that I do not want to make a fool out of myself once more.
Best wishes,
Anja
Anja wrote:
Of course I am pleased you and so many others like my little drawing, but unfortunately, I have to say "no" to using my drafts on t-shirts.
Fair enough, I quite understand that, although I'm sorry for it :(
instead). However, I certainly have a problem with how this whole issue has been handled. Take what you can get for free, use it as long as pleases you, even ask the author to do several more versions -- and 5 months later claim it sucks? Great. :-(
I didn't realise there was quite so much wooly-mindedness in this 'organisation' (I use the word advisedly...)
I had offered earlier to redo one of the drafts as high-quality vector graphics. However, I do not want to work for the garbage bin once more. I will only redo it as vector graphics if all FSFE core members agree to it, and especially those who vetoed against it as a logo agree that it is truly _desired_ to have it as t-shirt art.
Right. FSFE Core Members, would you please ALL respond to this, ASAP, one way or another? Thank you.
If people reach a consensus and then inform me (assuming they don't wish to have it done themselves)? I strongly suggest that if people appreciate Anja's design, they mention it _now_. And apologise to Anja, from the way this looks. This is unimpressive, particularly for a group that resists democratisation because 'it means nothing gets done'.
I am very sorry to spoil the t-shirt project for the moment, especially since I think that having t-shirts for the LinuxTag in July would be nice. I hope you understand me that I do not want to make a fool out of myself once more.
It appears to me that somehow you people have managed to get yourselves into what my dear mother would call 'a right knickers' twist' about this logo thing. However you look at it, this issue is standing in the way.
Georg: If you're going to call yourself president of anything, it's best to justify it by making occasional decisions. We have been snarled up on this logo rubbish for several months now!
Forgive my bossiness, particularly since I'm not a 'core member' of anything, and therefore have no right to do or say anything about this.
em
// OLDSIG "All bad art is the result of good intentions." - Oscar Wilde
/* START NEWSIG */ Processor: (n.) a device for converting sense to nonsense at the speed of electricity, or (rarely) the reverse. - Tonkin's First Computer Dictionary
On Wed, 9 May 2001, Anja Gerwinski wrote:
Hello, E.L. and all,
E L Tonkin wrote on May 09, 2001 at 06:33PM +0100:
However, I will volunteer to get the T-shirt thing fixed if people want this.
On Wed, 09 May 2001, E L Tonkin wrote:
Anja wrote:
Of course I am pleased you and so many others like my little drawing, but unfortunately, I have to say "no" to using my drafts on t-shirts.
Fair enough, I quite understand that, although I'm sorry for it :(
Me also :(
If people reach a consensus and then inform me (assuming they don't wish to have it done themselves)? I strongly suggest that if people appreciate Anja's design, they mention it _now_. And apologise to Anja, from the way this looks. This is unimpressive, particularly for a group that resists democratisation because 'it means nothing gets done'.
I appologise Anja. I've upgraded my order to two t-shirts :) And chance of polo's as well? *grin* Its cold in england.. even in the summer heh
Hi,
- What about your average idiot, who thinks Windows is complicated? I am
sorry to say it, but we've been working on it for several years and we STILL don't have a version of GNU/Linux that installs and /does stuff/ painlessly. Is that an FSF(E) problem? Do we care about Software For Your Average Idiot? or do we tell them to go hang?... or do we grit our teeth, take a copy of The Inmates Are Running The Asylum, and work out what they /do/ need?
<sarcasm> Wow, you'll really get these people to switch to free software by calling them the "average idiot". </sarcasm> Try being constructive for a change like the core team is doing.
greets,
WDS
BTW: Some politicians may be stupid, but must are just blind to our movement, that's why we need fsfe.
On Wed, 9 May 2001, WDS wrote:
- What about your average idiot, who thinks Windows is complicated?
<sarcasm> Wow, you'll really get these people to switch to free software by calling them the "average idiot". </sarcasm> Try being constructive for a change like the core team is doing.
Tell you what: YOU try being constructive. Answer the question you were so fetchingly sarcastic about - and the other twenty you ignored ;-)
Yours in politically incorrect phraseology,
Em
BTW: FYI, the 'For Dummies' textbook series are bestsellers, strongly suggesting that public opinion is firmly on the side of plain speaking.
Hi guys,
|| On Wed, 9 May 2001 18:33:28 +0100 (BST) || E L Tonkin py7elt@bath.ac.uk wrote:
elt> ...
elt> Otherwise, I'd rather see a bunch of annoyed answers leading to elt> a six-week thread war, than I would a sort of stunned elt> silence... Or have we elsewhere, previously, discussed the elt> points that came up?
Parts of it have been discussed, but it doesn't matter.
It is true that we have been stunned into silence a bit, but this was mostly due to a complete overload... each of us handles a lot of mail normally already and adding 40k a day to that is somewhat tough.
Still nothing has been forgotten or not been seen and I'll try to answer some of these questions now.
I could probably say that we indeed plan to do all the things you were listing and these were several of the reasons why we feel the FSF Europe is needed, but I'll try to answer them in detail... :)
elt> Stuff like
elt> * what /are/ the short-term aims of the fsfe? Establishing GPL elt> for each country, first? Then what?
Yes, making the GPL more bullet-proof for each European country and keeping it that way is one of our tasks.
elt> * What about long-term aims?
In the very long run we want to change the system in a way that it'll work in favor of free software and to ensure the existance of free software.
elt> * Is the FSFE structure good enough? What's wrong with it? What elt> do we need to fix? What about the sub-FSF chapters? Do geeks elt> really fit into a hierarchy? (hint: no)
We believe the structure we have found is actually very good and so far we haven't seen anything that would promise better results. Anarchy may work on a small level in some cases (and it is definitely preferrable there), but for something as big as a Europe-wide movement, a structure is needed.
More about this in different post.
elt> * Policy on finances, financial gain, industry freebies...
Well. As a charitable organization according to German law we are forbidden to make a profit from the FSF Europe ourselves. We can earn money for the FSF Europe, but that money *has* to be used to further the goals of Free Software *only*.
elt> * Exact structure of the FSFE, granted that those in power have elt> absolute authority. How 'reachable' an organisation should the elt> FSFE be? What do you do if you have this Great Idea you want to elt> put before them? The FSFE need to listen, or they'll end up out elt> of touch...
Absolutely. The reason why we created all these interfaces into the FSF Europe is that we want people to take part and be involved. Currently I'm not aware of any other organization above the local level that discusses its internals as openly as the FSF Europe does.
elt> * What about your average idiot, who thinks Windows is elt> complicated? I am sorry to say it, but we've been working on it elt> for several years and we STILL don't have a version of GNU/Linux elt> that installs and /does stuff/ painlessly. Is that an FSF(E) elt> problem? Do we care about Software For Your Average Idiot? or do elt> we tell them to go hang?... or do we grit our teeth, take a copy elt> of The Inmates Are Running The Asylum, and work out what they elt> /do/ need?
If someone had a concrete idea how to make free software easier to use/install or how to get it spread more effectively, helping this (whichever way help would be needed) would be a task of the FSF Europe, yes. Also we might try to start such a project... it very much depends on the single case.
But in general it can be said that this would be an area of the FSF Europe.
elt> * Directing software development. IMHO the things that GNU/Linux elt> currently needs ought to be defined, decided upon, and elt> integrated into Debian or whatever. No doubt Debian think this elt> too, and are busy doing it. Is this at all a FSF(E) problem?
Yes. Although we of course can't and don't want to tell Debian what to do, we'll definitely try to develop the technical vision beyond what we have today.
elt> * What about community? Does the FSFE have interest in getting elt> into establishing any LUG-style initiatives?
Probably more like "GNU User Groups," but yes. Where no suitable associated organization (see posting about structure) exists, we'll help the locals creating it. If there are already established well-working organizations, this would probably be waste of time.
elt> * If the free software community, what about trade union stuff, elt> people being forced to sign NDAs then getting hobbled by them in elt> their free software work? What about working out reasonable NDAs elt> in the spirit of the GPL? (NDA==Non Disclosure Agreement)
Good idea. Yeah, this would *definitely* be a thing to do for the FSFE.
elt> * How about tracking evil DMCA-style laws in each country? elt> That's an FSFE issue. Who does it? What do you do if you want to elt> contribute info?
The legal aspect is very important. We expect to spend a reasonable part of our money on legal fees, because if we miss what's going on, free software might be illegal tomorrow.
An example: in Germany a professor wanted to stop the evil record companies from ripping off young musicians. So he proposed a law that would *forbid* to give away copyrighted material without proper compensation. Since free software is (according to German law) a gift, it would become illegal then.
The professor and the politicians hadn't even *thought* about free software when thinking about this, but hadn't we been working closely together with some lawyers and started raising the point, we might have found ourselves in a BAD situation soon.
Together with the lawyers we have suggested a change that'll make an exception for free software and it looks favorable right now... so everything is under control.
But keeping an eye out for that sort of thing is *definitely* a task of the FSF Europe.
elt> * To repeat myself once more, what about the whole damn woman elt> issue? (And /be/ political, people, would you? This is a elt> discussion list. If you think it's all a non-issue, say so)
What about it? We'd be happy to see more females involved in software. We haven't planned anything to this extent but it might be possibly that we'll try to encourage it at some point.
elt> * What about stuff like legal defence, patents, all that? Does elt> the FSFE get into all that? How much?
See above. Yes, we are definitely getting into this, because this is one of the areas where you need a recognized organization that people take seriously. The FSF Europe will try to provide that.
elt> * How about stuff like DVD regionality, and blah? Would the FSFE elt> consider working out which countries having region-free DVD is elt> legal in, to be part of their job? True, it's hardware, but it's elt> ABOUT the freedom of individuals, and DeCSS is about software. I elt> consider this to be a place that /somebody/ has to work in, if elt> the word 'free' is to continue having meaning.
If we have a good idea how to approach this, we'd definitely get involved.
elt> I noticed earlier that somebody has a .sig file asking what elt> they'll do when their child asks them where they were when elt> freedom of speech was taken away from the Internet. Well, that elt> day is more or less here. Idiot companies are verging on the elt> side of total corporate paranoia, attempting control of every elt> media file out there. True, they won't stop the determined, elt> but...
Exactly. And we decided we want to tell our children: "We organized ourselves to work against it and tell people with a unified voice that we will not accept this!"
Regards, Georg
On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 06:33:28PM +0100, E L Tonkin wrote:
- What about your average idiot, who thinks Windows is complicated?
And what about the generation in rising, that is beeing taught how to use non-free OS's, calling that "taught on how to use a computer"?
Obviously, free means free as in free speech in this whole mail.
I strongly feel an overwhelming majority of education, both lower and higher, (except theoretical computer science university-grade classes) is not only using only proprietary software, but is teaching only the use of proprietary software, without even letting the students know that there is software that is free.
This already lead to the ridiculous situation where some IT departments hire MSCP's for positions as ... *nix admins, because there are MSCP's on the market, but no *nix skilled admins. E.g., my school's IT department does. While GNU's Not Unix and my university's IT doesn't quite use a free OS, I'm convinced they would do the same if they were running a GNU variant.
Always taking my school's IT department as an example, these guys are basically infiltrating the whole system, gradually moving more and more of the server infrastructure to what they know how to run properly... MS Windows. I don't thing this situation is local to my school. Another university in the same city has some computers for students to use for their work. Every single computer is running MS Windows. Yes, even computer science students only have access to Windows boxes. These students are the future admins and decision makers in IT departments. The "next generation" of admins will udnerstand only Windows. Thus making the use of free software the difficult path.
There is no point in having free software if no one knows how to use it. I think we should make some efforts leading to:
- Developing free software to be used as a tool in any level of education: primaire, high school, supérieur.
- Promoting the teaching of free software use. It can't be widely used if there's no widely spread knowledge on how to use it.
- Increase the general exposure of the next generations to free software. Let them all, not just geeks, know it exists, and they have enormous benefits to reap from it.
Hello,
Lionel Elie Mamane wrote:
There is no point in having free software if no one knows how to use it. I think we should make some efforts leading to:
- Developing free software to be used as a tool in any level of education: primaire, high school, supérieur.
- Promoting the teaching of free software use. It can't be widely used if there's no widely spread knowledge on how to use it.
- Increase the general exposure of the next generations to free software. Let them all, not just geeks, know it exists, and they have enormous benefits to reap from it.
Film at 11.
-- snip [FSFE PR][EN] "Free Software Foundation Europe aiming for more coordination between Free Software Developers."
Georg C. F. Greve press@fsfeurope.org 07 May 2001 20:06:23 +0200
[...]
The Foundation will also further Free Software in the educational sector where it will seek to coordinate and strengthen efforts by organizations and individuals dedicated to that task.
[...]
-- snap
Okay, so the goal is clear: Free software for education. You have mentioned three points: - The first was the creation of general purpose applications for education. OFSET is doing some. - The second point is "promotion". Could you specify what you mean with "promotion"? - The third is exposure of students to free software. I think this is conclusion of our actions, not an action itself.
Who would be interested in a FSFe education working group? What should be its goals? How could these goals be reached? If there are enough people willing to participate, I propose a separate mailing list.
Bye, Christian
On Wed, May 16, 2001 at 02:37:53PM +0200, Christian Selig wrote:
There is no point in having free software if no one knows how to use it. I think we should make some efforts leading to:
- Developing free software to be used as a tool in any level of education: primaire, high school, supérieur.
- Promoting the teaching of free software use. It can't be widely used if there's no widely spread knowledge on how to use it.
- Increase the general exposure of the next generations to free software. Let them all, not just geeks, know it exists, and they have enormous benefits to reap from it.
[FSFE PR][EN] "Free Software Foundation Europe aiming for more coordination between Free Software Developers."
Georg C. F. Greve press@fsfeurope.org 07 May 2001 20:06:23 +0200
Seems like I missed the paragraph you quoted.
Okay, so the goal is clear: Free software for education. You have mentioned three points:
- The first was the creation of general purpose applications for education.
*Tools* to be used *for* education.
- The second point is "promotion". Could you specify what you mean "promotion"?
Promotion of the teaching of free software use. Produce "know-how" on free software. Educate in the use of free software.
I meant anything that will have as a result (or encourage) classes where the subject taught is around "how to use XXX", where XXX is some part of a free environment. The same way there are classes teaching MS Office use, classes teaching LaTeX, LyX, AbiWord, Dia, Gnumeric, etc. The same way there are classes teaching how to set up and administer a Windows NT network, classes on how to set up and administer a network of boxes with free OS's (classes on SAMBA, NFS, NIS, security specifics to a free OS, ...)
Goal: The average guy that knows "how to use a computer" know how to use the GNU, not "only" the leading proprietary OS.
- The third is exposure of students to free software. I think this is conclusion of our actions, not an action itself.
I was beeing a bit more generic there, not only students. Have the things they want to run at home written, and let them know it exists. Even for students, the preceding point is what they study, what they "work" with. This point is what they have at home, what they "play around" with, what they have leisure with.
On Wed, 16 May 2001, Christian Selig wrote:
Hello,
Lionel Elie Mamane wrote:
There is no point in having free software if no one knows how to use it. I think we should make some efforts leading to:
[snip]
Film at 11.
-- snip Okay, so the goal is clear: Free software for education. You have mentioned three points:
- The first was the creation of general purpose applications for
education. OFSET is doing some.
- The second point is "promotion". Could you specify what you mean with
"promotion"?
- The third is exposure of students to free software. I think this is
conclusion of our actions, not an action itself.
Who would be interested in a FSFe education working group? What should be its goals? How could these goals be reached? If there are enough people willing to participate, I propose a separate mailing list.
I'm definitely interested in this. From my experience and I'm sure most peoples', there are huge numbers of people out there who are
a) unaware of the existence of Free Software solutions b) under the illusion that paying for software is a guarantee of the high quality of that software c) honestly interested and aware of the existence of Free Software solutions but who simply don't know where to start with it d) exposed to Microsoft products early due to the fact that this company has an unfortunate tendancy of literally giving their products away to educational establishments. Good marketing.
I think the first priority is to look at the software that already exists, as much as writing more. There are many cases, as so often in the GNU/Linux world, in which all the solutions already have been coded but not yet integrated together. For example, look at Gnumeric and Gnuplot, which just beg to be integrated and given user-level documentation... (disclaimer: I like them as they are!)
Also, I do feel that some thought could be put into simplifying things, ie. single documents folder accessible to users, no complicated filename stuff or 'lpr', a Recent Files folder, and so on. With some HCI-style thinking, X could meet the 'average user' half way much more effectively than the "tied into a 1985 interface design" conception of Windows.
Apart from user-level docs for everything (vital!) the people I mentioned in point c) are probably a very good reason to make some very well publicised efforts in education. I spend a couple of hours a week teaching people the absolute basics of Free Software, on average, and I was hoping to put together some half/full day classes in summer for those interested- 'LaTeX-fests', for example. Of course, this stuff is not easy to grasp but there are many people, especially in science, whose only reason for avoiding it is a lack of education in the subject.
I would do classes in AbiWord and so on, if I could honestly say that I was aware of anybody who had this sort of mid-range competency to computers and an interest in GNU/Linux. I am sure these people exist, but maybe some publicity would help them to know what organisation to ask for training.
It would be a great thing if some responsible body [insert name here] could actually come up with some reasonable syllabi and so on for this sort of short course, and even some form of certification for those that complete it (and a test?) successfully - and the same for those that instruct the course. Maybe this exists already but all I've heard of is the expensive effort from RedHat.
em
// OLDSIG "All bad art is the result of good intentions." - Oscar Wilde
/* START NEWSIG */ Processor: (n.) a device for converting sense to nonsense at the speed of electricity, or (rarely) the reverse. - Tonkin's First Computer Dictionary
----- Original Message ----- From: "E L Tonkin" py7elt@bath.ac.uk To: discussion@fsfeurope.org Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 7:18 PM Subject: Re: RfD: FSFe-education [FSFE projects]
d) exposed to Microsoft products early due to the fact that this company has an unfortunate tendancy of literally giving their products away to educational establishments. Good marketing.
Maybe fsfe should do the same. For example distribute [easy-install]copies of linux to schools etc.
My idea, Wim DS
Hi,
WDS wrote:
d) exposed to Microsoft products early due to the fact that this company has an unfortunate tendancy of literally giving their products away to educational establishments. Good marketing.
Maybe fsfe should do the same. For example distribute [easy-install]copies of linux to schools etc.
This is already happening here in Germany. The Association for Free Software and Education gives away copies of SuSE Linux (*) and the ministry of education in Schleswig-Holstein (federal state in the north) even has an own distribution.
Bye, Christian
(*): They have proprietary packages yada-yada
d) exposed to Microsoft products early due to the fact that this company has an unfortunate tendancy of literally giving their products away to educational establishments. Good marketing.
Maybe fsfe should do the same. For example distribute [easy-install]copies of linux to schools etc.
I think you miss the whole point here. - What should be the top-priority for teachers? -> teaching students (!)
An easy-install copy of linux is worth _nothing_ if they have to read thousands of pages to even maintain it.
I know. - I also often say that free software is _easy_ to use. But the reality is something completely different.
I know of a school with a full-time systems administrator and he needs the help of some enthusiastic students to keep up with the work. Now, many schools don't have this luxury of a dedicated sysadmin.
If it is _harder_ and _costs_ more money to maintain GNU/Linux it will not be used and the copies you sent them are _wasted_.
Sun introduced a model of an Education Service Provider. I think this might help in this situation.
What about an FSFE ESP that helps schools to outsource and maintain their infrastructure? - The maintainance would be (hopefully) lower and teachers would be able to focus on their _work_ instead of playing with some administration tools.
Hi,
Gerhard Poul wrote:
Maybe fsfe should do the same. For example distribute [easy-install]copies of linux to schools etc.
I think you miss the whole point here. - What should be the top-priority for teachers? -> teaching students (!)
ACK.
An easy-install copy of linux is worth _nothing_ if they have to read thousands of pages to even maintain it.
ACK.
I know. - I also often say that free software is _easy_ to use. But the reality is something completely different.
Really? Look at the next generation of proprietary OSes, especially W2k: I cannot see in which ways they are "easier" than GNU/Linux. They are as complex as GNU/Linux.
I know of a school with a full-time systems administrator and he needs the help of some enthusiastic students to keep up with the work. Now, many schools don't have this luxury of a dedicated sysadmin.
In Europe, *most* schools don't have more than 20 computers. But you could create pools, i.e. one sysadmin for 10 schools.
If it is _harder_ and _costs_ more money to maintain GNU/Linux it will not be used and the copies you sent them are _wasted_.
ACK.
[Application/Education Service Providing]
Well, if you can meet the requirements of the FSF (free software), that'd be interesting. But I don't think that the FSFe can help with servers and stuff.
Bye, Christian
I know. - I also often say that free software is _easy_ to use. But the reality is something completely different.
Really? Look at the next generation of proprietary OSes, especially W2k: I cannot see in which ways they are "easier" than GNU/Linux. They are as complex as GNU/Linux.
Well, when looking at proprietary OSes I have to look at the various kinds of them:
W2K - Gets more and more complex; I don't know more about it. I don't think I'd be able to admin a NT box without reading books.
MacOSX - Is distributed with Apache right out of the box and seems to be very easy to install and maintain without unix knowledge. (It is mach based. - all unix utils run if they don't require X11)
Solaris - As complex as Linux. More commercial support in europe IMHO and comes with good documentation. The interfaces are much more stable than the ones in Linux.
Linux - Nice, good. - _HARD_ to upgrade; not that well documented. FREE.
About me: I'm using Linux and I'm helping the free software field if I can but I used W2K on my laptop during various projects (not really useable!). I've also used Linux in a commercial ISP environment. With Linux you have to be _very_ careful when upgrading.
Hi,
Gerhard Poul wrote:
Linux - Nice, good. - _HARD_ to upgrade; not that well documented. FREE. [...] With Linux you have to be _very_ careful when upgrading.
Debian comes with apt, which works reliable as far as I can tell. I'd love to see other distributions using the rpm port of apt from Conectiva.
From a technical standpoint I can't really tell a non-technical teacher to start with linux on a server.
Gerhard Poul schrieb:
I think you miss the whole point here. - What should be the top-priority for teachers? -> teaching students (!)
An easy-install copy of linux is worth _nothing_ if they have to read thousands of pages to even maintain it.
I know. - I also often say that free software is _easy_ to use. But the reality is something completely different.
in germany there is a project to help the teachers (admins) to use linux and to solve there problems: www.pingos.schulnetz.org
clemens
Gerhard Poul a écrit :
An easy-install copy of linux is worth _nothing_ if they have to read thousands of pages to even maintain it.
I know. - I also often say that free software is _easy_ to use. But the reality is something completely different.
I know of a school with a full-time systems administrator and he needs the help of some enthusiastic students to keep up with the work. Now, many schools don't have this luxury of a dedicated sysadmin.
If it is _harder_ and _costs_ more money to maintain GNU/Linux it will not be used and the copies you sent them are _wasted_.
Sun introduced a model of an Education Service Provider. I think this might help in this situation.
What about an FSFE ESP that helps schools to outsource and maintain their infrastructure? - The maintainance would be (hopefully) lower and teachers would be able to focus on their _work_ instead of playing with some administration tools.
I think you should have a look at what the guys behind the pingoo distribution do : http://www.pingoo.org/English/welcome.html
Their servers are used in France in several schools with tens of thousands of students/teachers connected... and remote adminsitration of the servers.
The web site of Pingoo and of the "Centre de Ressources Informatiques de Haute-Savoie" (http://www.cri74.org/) which is the public local adminsitration of the eastern district of france leading the project should be most enjoyable if you need more info about that.
I've heard of similar experience in other districts, but have no pointer :(
This solves the problem of system adminsitration, but not of the educational applications, that teachers and students really need.
Olivier Berger wrote:
This solves the problem of system adminsitration, but not of the educational applications, that teachers and students really need.
Well, at my sister's school they currently have a WinNT server with Win98 on all the boxes. They use MS Office for most things, and Visual BASIC for teaching programming. I believe the art and music departments have specialist programs too.
Now, getting GNU/Linux on to the servers shouldn't be hard. The engineers who were setting them up wanted to use GNU/Linux, but the council told them to use WinNT instead (this is hearsay, but I believe it to be true).
The trouble after that is the desktop. There is a very powerful argument that says that the students should be learning to use Windows, because that's waht most of them will use at work.
However, if we can overcome that then it's easy-ish. IIRC Star Office is libre, so that can easily replace MS Office. The Gimp is as good as any other art software out there. I don't know what GNU/Linux has in the way of music software, though. There's a number of options for programming. There's a project right now to make a VB-alike called K-BASIC. There's the GCC of course, but it doesn't have pretty pictures like VB. Borland are porting (have ported?) Delphi, but that's not Free itself AFAIK.
A GNU/Linux + Star Office + the Gimp + [programming language] + [some Free music program] would be a lot cheaper than a comparable windows-based system. Considering how cash-strapped schools are in many places, selling that to them shouldn't be hard.
"Lord Alistair Davidson, part time deity" wrote:
Olivier Berger wrote:
This solves the problem of system adminsitration, but not of the educational applications, that teachers and students really need.
Well, at my sister's school they currently have a WinNT server with Win98 on all the boxes. They use MS Office for most things, and Visual BASIC for teaching programming. I believe the art and music departments have specialist programs too.
Now, getting GNU/Linux on to the servers shouldn't be hard. The engineers who were setting them up wanted to use GNU/Linux, but the council told them to use WinNT instead (this is hearsay, but I believe it to be true).
Managers... :(
The trouble after that is the desktop. There is a very powerful argument that says that the students should be learning to use Windows, because that's waht most of them will use at work.
Easy argument, when students will finish school, there will be another version of windows and office, so it's better to understand concepts instead, informatics evolve too fast anyway.
However, if we can overcome that then it's easy-ish. IIRC Star Office is libre, so that can easily replace MS Office. The Gimp is as good as any other art software out there. I don't know what GNU/Linux has in the way of music software, though. There's a number of options for programming. There's a project right now to make a VB-alike called K-BASIC. There's the GCC of course, but it doesn't have pretty pictures like VB. Borland are porting (have ported?) Delphi, but that's not Free itself AFAIK.
I've seen a demo ok kylix (delphi for linux) and it's easy, but there are scripting language as python that are very good. I think schools should not teach things like VB or Kylix, these languages hides too much, bad programing/programmers are the results.
A GNU/Linux + Star Office + the Gimp + [programming language] + [some Free music program] would be a lot cheaper than a comparable windows-based system. Considering how cash-strapped schools are in many places, selling that to them shouldn't be hard.
Not only they will be chaep, but users will be free to have the same setup at home without spending many many many euros, many students will have less money than a school. Calculate the price (of software) for the single system (without mass discount) and see if a student can have it's own.
Do not forget freedom.
Simo.
On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 03:28:22AM +0100, Lord Alistair Davidson, part time deity wrote:
Olivier Berger wrote:
This solves the problem of system adminsitration, but not of the educational applications, that teachers and students really need.
The trouble after that is the desktop. There is a very powerful argument that says that the students should be learning to use Windows, because that's waht most of them will use at work.
But it is not the task of schools to learn students the latest 'tricks', is it? They are there to give them insight into the subject matter, and teach them how to find their way in new and unknown systems (and situations and problems and ...). You do not learn to read from a glossy brochure, nor do you learn to write by writing cease-and-desist letters, even though these may all be activities which are somewhat relevant to 'real life' (unfortunately).
So using GNU/Linux (or BSD or any other open system, it is the openness which counts here) for teaching purposes actually fits the bill much better than using a closed system. In my, not so humble, opinion...
Cheers//Frank
Frank de Lange wrote:
But it is not the task of schools to learn students the latest 'tricks', is it? They are there to give them insight into the subject matter, and teach them how to find their way in new and unknown systems (and situations and problems and ...). You do not learn to read from a glossy brochure, nor do you learn to write by writing cease-and-desist letters, even though these may all be activities which are somewhat relevant to 'real life' (unfortunately). So using GNU/Linux (or BSD or any other open system, it is the openness which counts here) for teaching purposes actually fits the bill much better than using a closed system. In my, not so humble, opinion...
Okay, this is the whole point. Teach concepts, not programs. I've been preaching this for two years. But those people who think they're "teaching" when they show their pupils how to slap together some Powerpoint foils just don't get it (yet). "Tell an idiot that he's an idiot, he won't believe you" ... :-/
We can continue discussion on the edu mailing list.
Bye, Christian
Hi,
Olivier Berger wrote:
This solves the problem of system adminsitration, but not of the educational applications, that teachers and students really need.
Well, at my sister's school they currently have a WinNT server with Win98 on all the boxes. They use MS Office for most things, and Visual BASIC for teaching programming. I believe the art and music departments have specialist programs too.
Maybe we should first concentrate on propagating GNU/linux in that way that at least some of the pc's have it installed? Telling someone to switch a few pc's to "try it out" and give students the chance to use it, instead of the entire computer class. In my experience, after that GNU/Linux sells itself. ;)
cya,
wds
On Tue, 22 May 2001 20:13:17 +0200 "WDS" wdesmet@yucom.be wrote:
WDS> Hi, WDS> WDS> > Olivier Berger wrote: WDS> > > WDS> > > This solves the problem of system adminsitration, but not of the WDS> > > educational applications, that teachers and students really need. WDS> > WDS> > Well, at my sister's school they currently have a WinNT server with WDS> > Win98 on all the boxes. They use MS Office for most things, and Visual WDS> > BASIC for teaching programming. I believe the art and music departments WDS> > have specialist programs too.
WDS> Maybe we should first concentrate on propagating GNU/linux in that way that WDS> at least some of the pc's have it installed? Telling someone to switch a few WDS> pc's to "try it out" and give students the chance to use it, instead of the WDS> entire computer class. In my experience, after that GNU/Linux sells itself. WDS> ;)
This is exaclty one thing to be done. Using Python+Glade+Gnome is a very good solution
However
1. there is a lack of documentation, we start to reference and write relative doc for that (http://www.ofset.org/projects/doc/doc.html)
2. there is some GPL compatibility problem with Python > 1.6 license and the GPL (however there is hope this will be fixed soon)
Hilaire
-- OFSET - Organization for Free Software in Education and Teaching http://www.ofset.org http://www.ofset.org/freeduc
Hilaire Fernandes hilaire@ext.cri74.org writes:
- there is some GPL compatibility problem with Python > 1.6 license and the GPL
(however there is hope this will be fixed soon)
Apparently it is already fixed. Guido recently checked in some changes to the LICENSE file with the comment "Make the license GPL-compatible.". See http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/python/python/dist/src/LICENS...
If I read that correctly the two mainenance releases (for 2.0 and 2.1) and 2.2 will be GPL compatible.
Bernhard
On 23 May 2001 10:52:49 +0200 Bernhard Herzog bh@intevation.de wrote:
Bernhard> Hilaire Fernandes hilaire@ext.cri74.org writes: Bernhard> Bernhard> > 2. there is some GPL compatibility problem with Python > 1.6 license and the GPL Bernhard> > (however there is hope this will be fixed soon) Bernhard> Bernhard> Apparently it is already fixed. Guido recently checked in some changes Bernhard> to the LICENSE file with the comment "Make the license GPL-compatible.". Bernhard> See Bernhard> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/python/python/dist/src/LICENS... Bernhard> Bernhard> If I read that correctly the two mainenance releases (for 2.0 and 2.1)
Fine, the only thing I know to date was http://www.python.org/2.1/fsf.html. This was in April. We should wait for the final word from the FSF attorney about the very recent change in the LICENSE. This is very good to see Guido is doing what required to fix the things
Hilaire
-- OFSET - Organization for Free Software in Education and Teaching http://www.ofset.org http://www.ofset.org/freeduc
[Maybe I will not be able to attend a linux expo in the future because someone will try to kill me if I would but I will write this mail. Maybe you understand what I'm trying to say :) ]
- What about your average idiot, who thinks Windows is complicated?
And what about the generation in rising, that is beeing taught how to use non-free OS's, calling that "taught on how to use a computer"?
I don't like that but this depends on the teachers. - If you can educate teachers this would be no problem at all I think.
What about making some BOF sessions about use of linux in education at the next expos? - Invite some teachers and _discuss_ the use of free software with them. You can only win from something like that. - Either you know what is wrong with free software like it is today or you will convince them to use it.
This already lead to the ridiculous situation where some IT departments hire MSCP's for positions as ... *nix admins, because there are MSCP's on the market, but no *nix skilled admins. E.g., my school's IT department does. While GNU's Not Unix and my university's IT doesn't quite use a free OS, I'm convinced they would do the same if they were running a GNU variant.
This has _nothing_ to do with _free software_ at all.
Sun, HP, and IBM have the same problem. - Nobody knows _anyhting_ about their Unix systems before someday sitting in front of one ;-)
If Unix User Groups don't address this issue maybe the FSFE should promote the use of Unix. (either free or non-free)
The user interface is almost the same and the students know that there is something other than windows out there.
Always taking my school's IT department as an example, these guys are basically infiltrating the whole system, gradually moving more and more of the server infrastructure to what they know how to run properly... MS Windows. I don't thing this situation is local to my school. Another university in the same city has some computers for students to use for their work. Every single computer is running MS Windows. Yes, even computer science students only have access to Windows boxes. These students are the future admins and decision makers in IT departments. The "next generation" of admins will udnerstand only Windows. Thus making the use of free software the difficult path.
That's what I'm trying to prohibit. - If they learn Unix, regardless of freeness, they will have _no_ problem of working with a GNU system.
Okay. Maybe they will _have_ to work with other non-gnu systems but at least they know that it exist and might think about licensing some parts of software they wrote under the GPL. - Every free software that is released helps.
- Developing free software to be used as a tool in any level of education: primaire, high school, supérieur.
I don't think free software works that way.
- Promoting the teaching of free software use. It can't be widely used if there's no widely spread knowledge on how to use it.
This can be done with free _or_ non-free unix systems. [yes, free unix systems are _not_ unix but we will ignore this issue...]
- Increase the general exposure of the next generations to free software. Let them all, not just geeks, know it exists, and they have enormous benefits to reap from it.
agreed. - I think if you talk to teachers at expos and convince them that free software is something interesting and useful that they will join this movement and support its use.
Invite some teachers and _discuss_ the use of free software
Good idea, but most teachers are (as far as I know) educated at a federal level. And usually support for school ICT projects (at least here in Belgium) is very dependent on corporate sponsoring. IMHO, we should try to lobby the countries and not influence the teachers, who represent the blind mass.
Nickle,
WDS
On Sun, 20 May 2001 21:38:23 +0200 "WDS" wdesmet@yucom.be wrote:
WDS> >Invite some teachers and _discuss_ the use of free software WDS> Good idea, but most teachers are (as far as I know) educated at a federal WDS> level. And usually support for school ICT projects (at least here in WDS> Belgium) is very dependent on corporate sponsoring. IMHO, we should try to WDS> lobby the countries and not influence the teachers, who represent the blind WDS> mass.
I do not agree. What is lacking in the education community (teacher) is a strong hacker community. If there is no hacker community in the education there is few free edu software developped.
What we can do is to help to build such a community. Writing documentation targeted to these people can help -- without waranty of any success. Explaining the GNU philosophy is also important probably
This is what I have started since one year, writing tutorial to develop application using Python/Gnome/Glade. I am not personnaly very interested in Python programming but this is a good language to start developping but we *lack* good documentation to attract people.
Pyhton is probably the easiest entry point although there is probably other possibilities.
Hilaire
-- OFSET - Organization for Free Software in Education and Teaching http://www.ofset.org http://www.ofset.org/freeduc
Invite some teachers and _discuss_ the use of free software
Good idea, but most teachers are (as far as I know) educated at a federal level. And usually support for school ICT projects (at least here in Belgium) is very dependent on corporate sponsoring. IMHO, we should try to lobby the countries and not influence the teachers, who represent the blind mass.
I don't know how it is in other countries but I don't think that someone can force the teachers to use windows. - If a school switches a computer lab to linux, so what? If they use linux instead of windows for wordprocessing or editing source, who cares?
As I said, I don't know how this is handled in other countries.
Location Info of the writer: Vienna, Austria.
s/linux/GNU/Linux/g
I don't know how it is in other countries but I don't think that someone can force the teachers to use windows.
However, government agencies usually get discounts on proprietary product and actively advertise them to each and every school. In Italy, they went as far as granting money to music school _only_ if they buy a specific kind of computer and a specific release of OS (we've been told this by an angry music teacher, but nobody managed to go deep in the issue, as far as I know, after we got the official number of the directive).
If a school switches a computer lab to linux, so what? If they use linux instead of windows for wordprocessing or editing source, who cares?
I am not sure about this, but official teaching programs may happen to be bound to specific sw products. At least, when I was asked to teach in a social structure, I had to refuse teaching informatics because of the programs (fortunately maths and physics were still not bound to software at the time).
/alessandro
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerhard Poul" gpoul@gnu.org To: "WDS" wdesmet@yucom.be Cc: "Lionel Elie Mamane" lionel@mamane.lu; discussion@fsfeurope.org Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 8:37 AM Subject: Re: FSFE projects [was: T-shirts]
Invite some teachers and _discuss_ the use of free software
Good idea, but most teachers are (as far as I know) educated at a
federal
level. And usually support for school ICT projects (at least here in Belgium) is very dependent on corporate sponsoring. IMHO, we should try
to
lobby the countries and not influence the teachers, who represent the
blind
mass.
I don't know how it is in other countries but I don't think that someone can force the teachers to use windows. - If a school switches a computer lab to linux, so what? If they use linux instead of windows for wordprocessing or editing source, who cares?
As I said, I don't know how this is handled in other countries.
Yes, the government doesn't control which system they run, but they do control the promotion of it. As is said in a later post. Further on, they control the way teachers are educated. If you, as a teacher, had spent 6 months of night school to learn windows (not very likely, but there are strange people out there), then I guess you would habe a *big* problem with suddenly switching to free software. Maybe that's a more accurate description of my initial point.
chrs, WDS
I don't like that but this depends on the teachers. - If you can educate teachers this would be no problem at all I think.
Yes. The main issue is getting teachers to know about Free Software.
And a typical error that people makes is "let's work on the issue and change the world". The problem, unfortunately, is a big one (like swpatents) and exactly like with swpatents we must look to coordinate with existing initiatives instead of firing new ones.
There are very good groups of people working on the topic of free software in education (and yes, there are also a lot of bad initiatives out there, in Italy I've seen examples of both). Everyone would benefit if we help coordinating existing initiatives.
What needs to be done in the educational field, in my opinion is: A- talk with politicians, to make governments be favorable to free software in education. Some nations are already working in this direction, and it's important to know what is being done before acting again. B- help individual teachers as much as possible. There are very smart and motivated teachers out there, and their papers are worth more visibility on the web. Collecting and re-publishing existing material and lists of interesting links would be very benefical. C- support i18n efforts. In education you need local-language tools and, unfortunately, this is one of the fields where free software is most lacking (as far as I know, but I chose to disregard the issue to keep my life easier).
While Italy (the environment I know best about) is one of the worst countries WRT use and understanding of free software, we have a few very smart teachers that are doing an enourmous amount of work. They are the (B) avove: a powerful resource, but need help in (A). Other teachers, those who don't know about Free Software yet, need help in (C) to make the transition easier.
If the bureaucracy gets involed in this, it can set up courses for teachers about Free Software. Teachers routinely attend official "update courses" to stay current. Last year we had one such course in Trento, thanks to Francesco Mulas and other motivated people in the regional offices, who helped make it real.
Some interesting points made by our teachers:
- the educational offices spend a huge amount of money in buying software in order to teach students about it. However, according to normal commercial rules, those software companies that want schools to teach their stuff should *pay* schools to this aim, instead. (but, obviouly, education can't be bought, so all of this is a nonsense) - the only way a teacher can enjoy his/her freedom in teaching (one of the basic rights of teachers in public schools) is by using Free Software. Every other choice is so limiting that it's in fact depriving the teacher of his/her main didactic force, relagating him/her to a marketing instrument.
Disclaimer: I may have misrepresented the fine details of very well-thought and well-formulated ideas. My point here is that there are good resources and great documents that need more support (translation, visibility etc).
BTW: some of those great teachers are participating in linux-expo Milano this June. I urge anyone poking there to go and listen to them, especially Antonio Bernardi.
/alessandro
Alessandro Rubini a écrit :
There are very good groups of people working on the topic of free software in education (and yes, there are also a lot of bad initiatives out there, in Italy I've seen examples of both). Everyone would benefit if we help coordinating existing initiatives.
Disclaimer: I may have misrepresented the fine details of very well-thought and well-formulated ideas. My point here is that there are good resources and great documents that need more support (translation, visibility etc).
Those interested would have a look at http://libresoftware-educ.org/en/ (French and Italian pages available), for instance, which tried to coordinate efforts in promoting FS in the field of education during several days in the begining of this year.
josX wrote:
How conveniant this `T-shirt' initiative pops-up on the list, just when we talking about what really matters.
Yes, it took hours planning this just to divert issues <sigh>
What an interesting coinsidence!
I fail to see any connection
oh, no, sorry.... I just got a little distracted from goals and target, sorry, blinders keep falling off....
Everybody has been activelly adressing your commnets; it doesn't mean that nothing else can't be talked about meanwhile on a newlly created thread.
Regards,
fsm
-- Frederico Munoz fsmunoz@sdf.lonestar.org
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How conveniant this `T-shirt' initiative pops-up on the list, just when we talking about what really matters.
Look, that's why there's such a thing as a subject. Just don't read those t-shirt e-mails and that should be it for you.
I value your personal opinion and input, but I am not going to think before every posting I make - "Uh, I hope that's important enough for everybody." No offence, but that's how I see it.
sl, gpg - public key 0x1FE281EB karin "kyrah" kosina http://kyrah.net http://the.system.at +-----------------------------------><---------------------------------+ [ please sign the petition against software patents at ] [ http://petition.eurolinux.org ]