There's just been a call for help on a debian mailing list. In amongst it, it includes the phrase "I did not get a response from the Free Software Foundation Europe." What's happened?
From bounce-debian-project=mjr=phonecoop.coop@lists.debian.org Tue Apr 24 06:41:23 2007 Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:41:08 +0200 From: "Torsten Werner" twerner@debian.org Reply-To: mail.twerner@googlemail.com To: debian-project@lists.debian.org Subject: ballot period for ECMA 376 / DIS 29500 (aka OOXML) List-Id: <debian-project.lists.debian.org>
Hi,
I want to remind you that the ballot period about Microsoft/ECMA office document format runs until the beginning of September and national ISO bodies have to vote about the fasttrack process. Microsoft is very active in this process, free software people are not as far as I know, e.g. I did not get a response from the Free Software Foundation Europe. The risk of a successful standardization of OOXML is the marginalization of ODF (ISO 26300) which would make migrations from non-free software to free software more difficult in the long run.
If you are interested in preventing that scenario please take action *now*. Contact your national ISO bodies and tell them your interests. In Germany you can become a member of DIN's working group. I can explain the details if someone is interested. Maybe that is possible in other countries, too.
A good starting point for more information is http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070123071154671 .
Cheers, Torsten
-- blog: http://twerner.blogspot.com/ homepage: http://www.twerner42.de/
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MJ Ray wrote:
There's just been a call for help on a debian mailing list. In amongst it, it includes the phrase "I did not get a response from the Free Software Foundation Europe." What's happened?
This is a good question. I just did a quick search in my mail archive and couldn't find anything from Torsten. However, I believe that Torsten is on this list, so maybe he can tell us who he tried to contact in the FSFE about the issue :-)
My recommendation would be to talk to Stefano Maffulli maffulli@fsfeurope.org who's been lobbying in Italy to get them to cast a favorable vote against OOXML, and also Georg Greve greve@fsfeurope.org who has written quite a bit about it on:
http://www.fsfe.org/en/fellows/greve/freedom_bits
On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 10:47 +0200, Jonas Oberg wrote:
My recommendation would be to talk to Stefano Maffulli <maffulli fsfeurope org> who's been lobbying in Italy to get them to cast a favorable vote against OOXML,
No, I don't do this. I don't know where you got this impression.
It's Georg that is supposed to coordinate actions on the OXML ISO problem for FSFE and he is the only point of contact for this issue, afaic.
/stef
On 4/24/07, Jonas Oberg oberg@fsfeurope.org wrote:
This is a good question. I just did a quick search in my mail archive and couldn't find anything from Torsten.
My message had the subject 'Denmark mandates open standards by 2008' and there was no response that showed any interest in working actively.
Regards, Torsten
"Torsten Werner" mail.twerner@googlemail.com wrote:
My message had the subject 'Denmark mandates open standards by 2008' and there was no response that showed any interest in working actively.
I think that only asked if there was anyone in Denmark who was going to take action against their national standards body. http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.fsf.europe.discussion/1486
Next time, say what you want http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html#want especially if you're going to criticise recipients for non-response.
Regards,
On 4/24/07, MJ Ray mjr@phonecoop.coop wrote:
Next time, say what you want http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html#want especially if you're going to criticise recipients for non-response.
I just mentioned the FSFE as an example for not finding someone that wants to take part in the ISO process and I have asked the readers of debian-project to become active because I think it is a good idea.
It might be enough to write a friendly letter to your national body during the next weeks. Such a letter *must* be considered before the national body makes a decision (due to ISO regulations).
Cheers, Torsten
|| On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:59:37 +0200 || "Torsten Werner" mail.twerner@googlemail.com wrote:
tw> I just mentioned the FSFE as an example for not finding someone tw> that wants to take part in the ISO process and I have asked the tw> readers of debian-project to become active because I think it is tw> a good idea.
Please note that FSFE wants to participate in the ISO process, but our resources are mostly allocated on issues with even higher priorities, so we're dependant on either finding more resources or more volunteers.
There are some initiatives to try and get active in the national standardisation bodies on the issue. But we usually need someone locally on the ground who can help us with this.
If you could tell our German Team how FSFE could become part of the German ISO body, that would be useful.
Regards, Georg
Hi,
"Torsten Werner" mail.twerner@googlemail.com writes:
I just mentioned the FSFE as an example for not finding someone that wants to take part in the ISO process
I worked with IFSO to write to the relevent body in Ireland: http://ifso.ie/documents/correspondence/20070201iso-ooxml.pdf
And I participated in other mailing lists and spread information to help others also submit letters. None of these were submitted under the name "FSFE", but FSFE still participated in helping these groups.
Just this week I spent most of Monday in a meeting with 20 others discussing OOXML and the ISO process. I might try to summarise this for a blog entry when I'm coming back from Strasbourg tomorrow evening.
We don't have enough resources to lead this. If you would like to start something bigger, this list would be a good place to discuss it, or if you have an fsfe.org blog you could announce it there.
|| On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:22:59 +0100 || MJ Ray mjr@phonecoop.coop wrote:
mr> There's just been a call for help on a debian mailing list. In mr> amongst it, it includes the phrase "I did not get a response from mr> the Free Software Foundation Europe." What's happened?
Good question.
I'd like to know who he contacted, and how. I'll get in touch.
Regards, Georg
From bounce-debian-project=mjr=phonecoop.coop@lists.debian.org Tue Apr 24 06:41:23 2007 Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:41:08 +0200 From: "Torsten Werner" twerner@debian.org Reply-To: mail.twerner@googlemail.com To: debian-project@lists.debian.org Subject: ballot period for ECMA 376 / DIS 29500 (aka OOXML) List-Id: <debian-project.lists.debian.org>
On Tuesday 24 April 2007 10:22, MJ Ray wrote:
There's just been a call for help on a debian mailing list. In amongst it, it includes the phrase "I did not get a response from the Free Software Foundation Europe." What's happened?
Torsten is in close contact with some FSFE people, so it is unlikely that he did not get an answer at all.
From bounce-debian-project=mjr=phonecoop.coop@lists.debian.org Tue Apr 24 06:41:23 2007 Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:41:08 +0200 From: "Torsten Werner" twerner@debian.org Reply-To: mail.twerner@googlemail.com To: debian-project@lists.debian.org Subject: ballot period for ECMA 376 / DIS 29500 (aka OOXML) List-Id: <debian-project.lists.debian.org>
I want to remind you that the ballot period about Microsoft/ECMA office document format runs until the beginning of September and national ISO bodies have to vote about the fasttrack process.
BTW: Note that using "fasttrack" is a bit confusing, the ballot period is not faster than others, as far as I know.
Microsoft is very active in this process, free software people are not as far as I know, e.g. I did not get a response from the Free Software Foundation Europe.
FSFE is active on OOXML. (e.g. see Georg's blog entry: http://fsfe.org/en/fellows/greve/freedom_bits/update_on_openxml_vs_odf )
But we lack the resources to take all possible actions. Getting people into all commissions and doing the work there is very resources intensive in terms of money and time. Sometimes there are even entrance fees.
The risk of a successful standardization of OOXML is the marginalization of ODF (ISO 26300) which would make migrations from non-free software to free software more difficult in the long run.
True.
Personally I doubt that preventing an ISO standardisation is worth very high costs, because a) just because something is standardised does not make it a good format b) the standardisation process has some problems which are even harder to fix, so it is doubtfull that standardisation of further office formats can be prevented ultimately at all.
Most "no" votes will have a condition to be turned to yes if it is resolved. My expecation is that the good work of the following document will result in a lot of strong conditions: http://www.grokdoc.net/index.php/EOOXML_objections
c) This is not the only thing that prevents Free Software adoption d) We need to prepare for adoption of improved formats coming out of Free Software processes as well, having arguments in place that only ISO standardised documents are good might be counter productive later.
Again this is my personal opinion, others FSFE people have different views.
If you are interested in preventing that scenario please take action *now*. Contact your national ISO bodies and tell them your interests. In Germany you can become a member of DIN's working group. I can explain the details if someone is interested. Maybe that is possible in other countries, too.
A good starting point for more information is http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070123071154671 .
It is good that Torsten tries to motivate more people to help.
Bernhard
On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 12:34 +0200, Bernhard Reiter wrote:
I want to remind you that the ballot period about Microsoft/ECMA office document format runs until the beginning of September and national ISO bodies have to vote about the fasttrack process.
BTW: Note that using "fasttrack" is a bit confusing, the ballot period is not faster than others, as far as I know.
It is and it isn't :)
"Fast track" just means that the standard has come from an existing, trusted, standards body. Usually, ISO would form a committee, even to adopt an existing standard. On the fast track, they don't form a committee - they send it to an existing one - and simply vote on it.
So, "fast" means "relative to the ISO process".
OpenDocument took around six months to get through ISO, through a similar process that OASIS have access to.
Personally I doubt that preventing an ISO standardisation is worth very high costs, because <reasons>
I partially agree with that.
Microsoft aren't putting themselves through ISO just to feel good, though, and I don't think that it will either help or hinder their monopoly position. I think they're mainly worried about it because they want OXML to be considered standardised, and feel that Ecma alone isn't sufficient.
If OpenDocument remains the only ISO-standardised format, it gives it a raison d'etre, and maybe a little oxygen. ODF then has a market, and can grow.
Where I do agree with you: I don't think that it would prevent adoption of free software. In many ways, I could care less what the actual file format is: at the moment, I have to deal with many .doc files on a day to day basis, and I don't have any problems with that using free software. In the field of office software, getting the information out of the file (& understanding the format) is really only a small part of the overall "can I use this file" problem.
Additionally, I wouldn't ask free software developers to refrain from implementing OXML if there is demand for it. Personally, I've seen no demand - and it seems MS are having real trouble getting people to use these new formats, so the point may be moot - but there's no reason to cut our collective noses off to spite our faces.
Cheers,
Alex.