The best symbol for Europe *is* the ring of 12 stars, which is used in the flag adopted by both the European Union and the Council of Europe, of which all 41 European states are a member.
No it isn't.
What "isn't"?
The flag it not the best symbol for Europe.
The flag is not a symbol of the Council of Europe? That's wrong.
The Council of Europe does not have 41 member states? That's wrong too, it does.
It's only that people think of the Union first when they see the flag - but that's true with the name "Europe" too.
Yes. Exactly. And here in Sweden, 50% of the people accosiates the flag with something they don't like. The same goes for Norway.
David Westlund
Hi,
I am sorry, but why MUST the logo associate with Europe ?
And aren't there more things which is typically european than the flag ?
If you feel unsure and do not want to disgruntle the european countries, that take the Gnu and put a ring of all European Flags around it ;-)
Andreas
David Westlund schrieb:
The best symbol for Europe *is* the ring of 12 stars, which is used in the flag adopted by both the European Union and the Council of Europe, of which all 41 European states are a member.
No it isn't.
What "isn't"?
The flag it not the best symbol for Europe.
The flag is not a symbol of the Council of Europe? That's wrong.
The Council of Europe does not have 41 member states? That's wrong too, it does.
It's only that people think of the Union first when they see the flag - but that's true with the name "Europe" too.
Yes. Exactly. And here in Sweden, 50% of the people accosiates the flag with something they don't like. The same goes for Norway.
David Westlund
Discussion mailing list Discussion@fsfeurope.org http://mailman.fsfeurope.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussion
Hi,
I am sorry, but why MUST the logo associate with Europe ?
It's Free Software Foundation *Europe*.
I don't mean to sanctify Europe. It is not such a special place or anything, it just happens that a few people got together to work for a goal shared (and possibly inspired) by FSF and they happen to be all European (or they think so) and think it would be right to join efforts across Europe. A FSF sister for the people living no further than 1000 kilometers from Tugunska would be as good an effort, it's simply that it isn't what we're talking about.
I mean if you don't agree to associate the organization with Europe (for some definition of Europe), you must not only change the logo but also the name itself.
And aren't there more things which is typically european than the flag ?
If you feel unsure and do not want to disgruntle the european countries, that take the Gnu and put a ring of all European Flags around it ;-)
But that would be opening Pandora's box. I think you are in all your right to feel more Norwegian (or whatever) than European. But I feel more Catalan than European but more European than Spanish. So if you put the Spanish flag in that ring I'd like the Catalan one to be there also. If you don't like the EU then I don't like the states, I'd rather the nations. Someone else would have it the flags or fields of all cities or towns.
I sincerely think any set of more than one flag would upset more people than a single flag. If there is another symbol that is associated with Europe and is not the 12 stars, I think it's fine.
The map could be right (although we could start discussing whether to include overseas lands, or how detailed it should be, and there'd be no end to it).
But many flags just won't do.
I think the 12 stars are OK, if no better option arises. After all, I don't like the European institutions as they are, but one of the reasons to set up a FSFE is to be able to work in, with or against those institutions to help free software.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Xavier Drudis Ferran" xdrudis@tinet.org
I am sorry, but why MUST the logo associate with Europe ?
It's Free Software Foundation *Europe*.
I don't think the discussion about the pros and cons of a united (or not) Europe have much to do with the task at hand.
I suggest though, instead of surrounding the Gnu's head with the stars, to put a small ring of stars beside it. The main thing is the FSF idea, secondary the fact that this is the European version of it.
- Josef
Somehow we should try to get some creative ideas in other directions as symbolising Europe or using the GNU head. It seems that we are stuck with this so far and it is not productive.
The stars and the head as proposed many times (also the european map) are hard to put into a "good" logo. Anja probably already did the best job on that that I can imagine so far.
So we need to think along different lines. A lot of good logos also contain letters or consist of letters. One question might be: What can we make the letters FSFE represent?
I think that the FSFE is strong enough that we can establish an almost completly new symbol, if we decide to do so.
Bernhard
On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 09:38:41AM +0100, Josef Dalcolmo wrote:
I am sorry, but why MUST the logo associate with Europe ?
It's Free Software Foundation *Europe*.
I don't think the discussion about the pros and cons of a united (or not) Europe have much to do with the task at hand.
I suggest though, instead of surrounding the Gnu's head with the stars, to put a small ring of stars beside it. The main thing is the FSF idea, secondary the fact that this is the European version of it.
Bernhard Reiter wrote:
Somehow we should try to get some creative ideas in other directions as symbolising Europe or using the GNU head. It seems that we are stuck with this so far and it is not productive.
The stars and the head as proposed many times (also the european map) are hard to put into a "good" logo. Anja probably already did the best job on that that I can imagine so far.
So we need to think along different lines. A lot of good logos also contain letters or consist of letters. One question might be: What can we make the letters FSFE represent?
I think that the FSFE is strong enough that we can establish an almost completly new symbol, if we decide to do so.
I like the idea. So here's a first suggestion: What about a Logo consisting of the pure name? FREE Software Foundation Europe The letters of FREE should be very large, and the other words small enough to fit into the same typographical length. Then, it could be possible to arrange FREE in a square and - with a little distance - the other worts in a square of the same size beneath FREE. So it would be a very simple, pure form of two squares in the proportion of 1 (width) to 2 (height). The two squares could also be arranged side by side instead of beneath of each other.
Bernd
On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 10:45:03AM +0100, Bernd Kulawik wrote:
I like the idea. So here's a first suggestion: What about a Logo consisting of the pure name? FREE Software Foundation Europe The letters of FREE should be very large, and the other words small enough to fit into the same typographical length.
I am against a dominant use of "FREE". These 4 capital letters too oftern appear in conjunction with SPAM. May private filters will automatically remove E-Mails containig this keyword :-)
Jan
Jan-Oliver Wagner wrote:
On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 10:45:03AM +0100, Bernd Kulawik wrote:
I like the idea. So here's a first suggestion: What about a Logo consisting of the pure name? FREE Software Foundation Europe The letters of FREE should be very large, and the other words small enough to fit into the same typographical length.
I am against a dominant use of "FREE". These 4 capital letters too oftern appear in conjunction with SPAM. May private filters will automatically remove E-Mails containig this keyword :-)
Jan
Does your e-Mail-filter read Logos ? ;-)
On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 12:38:04PM +0100, Bernd Kulawik wrote:
Jan-Oliver Wagner wrote:
I am against a dominant use of "FREE". These 4 capital letters too oftern appear in conjunction with SPAM. May private filters will automatically remove E-Mails containig this keyword :-)
Does your e-Mail-filter read Logos ?
nope, but if you create a text-logo, the text will be used frequently in texts/emails ;-)
Why not just "FSFE" with some interesting font or arrangement?
Jan
On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, David Westlund wrote:
The flag it not the best symbol for Europe.
It's only that people think of the Union first when they see the flag - but that's true with the name "Europe" too.
Yes. Exactly. And here in Sweden, 50% of the people accosiates the flag with something they don't like. The same goes for Norway.
If Sweden and Norway associate "Europe" with "European Union" with "The Downfall of All that is Good", then no matter what logo you choose, they will associate EUFSF with "Europe" and hence the rest. As a European organization, we are associated with Europe. If people don't like that, they need to freshen up their minds about their continent as well as their software licenses.
Pi
Hi,
have been lurking for some time and would like to contribute my 2p from the UK's point of view.
* Pim van Riezen (pi@vuurwerk.nl) wrote:
On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, David Westlund wrote:
The flag it not the best symbol for Europe.
It's only that people think of the Union first when they see the flag - but that's true with the name "Europe" too.
Yes. Exactly. And here in Sweden, 50% of the people accosiates the flag with something they don't like. The same goes for Norway.
If Sweden and Norway associate "Europe" with "European Union" with "The Downfall of All that is Good", then no matter what logo you choose, they will associate EUFSF with "Europe" and hence the rest. As a European organization, we are associated with Europe. If people don't like that, they need to freshen up their minds about their continent as well as their software licenses.
Though you might be right about the narrow minds living in certain European countries I think it doesn't help to alienate them straight away.
My own oppinion is against a unified European state. Looking at the past human history there was not a single state formed on such a cultural basis that has survived. All of them ended in wars.
Though this point being off-topic it leads to my point about the UK and the prevailing anti-European climate. A country that has got a civil war and two other parts trying to be independent as well, it will not be easy to convince them of just another artificial construct.
Anyway, everything European will meet a lot of hostility in the UK. Guess that's my point. Sorry for waffling on.
Regards, REB
My own opinion is against a unified European state. Looking at the past human history there was not a single state formed on such a cultural basis that has survived. All of them ended in wars.
Though this point being off-topic it leads to my point about the UK and the prevailing anti-European climate. A country that has got a civil war and two other parts trying to be independent as well, it will not be easy to convince them of just another artificial construct.
Anyway, everything European will meet a lot of hostility in the UK. Guess that's my point. Sorry for waffling on.
Regards, REB
On Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 12:59:24AM -0000, David Blane wrote:
Anyway, everything European will meet a lot of hostility in the UK. Guess that's my point. Sorry for waffling on.
From a Scottish point of view, I must disassociate myself and the majority of my compatriots from this sentiment.
I think we're getting into politics too far here :-) I don't think any measurement of any small part of the UK population is going to yield any interesting results - for example, the Northern Irish are (mostly) fiercely British first and foremost, and (for the rest) fiercely anti-British. The UK is diverse.
Anyway, back on topic :) - I think I agree with most of the points expressed on this list, even those which are contradictory. I agree that the logo I think best represents FSFE is the GNU on a backdrop of 12 stars. The simple test, for me, is this: imagine we ask the web designers to create a 'poll page', where people can visit. It's kind of like 'am I hot or not', so let's call this 'am I FSFE or not?' :-). Each visitor gets one logo, and a text box, and are asked to guess who the logo represents (obviously, calling the poll 'am I FSFE or not' would not be a good idea, it's just a code name :). We would have a selection of all the logos posted here, and some other random ones too. I would bet a LOT of money that GNU + stars would lead to people to connect Free Software and Europe. I would further bet that most other logos would NOT lead people to connect Free Software and Europe. Within our community (ie., the IT community at large, rather than specifically the Free software / FSFE community) the logo that would get best recognition is GNU + stars. It's really as simple as that for me - despite any connotations people feel the logo possesses, GNU + stars will make people think FSF + Europe. I'm don't think any other logo will be as powerful.
HOWEVER, I also agree the GNU + stars makes a pretty poor logo. One thing that has always annoyed me about the FSF is the lack of corporate image - obviously, a lot of people see web pages are purely functional, and like the quick, cut-down FSF pages and their zero-graphic (almost) content. But, while good for people in the community, it doesn't do the FSF any favours to those outside. While we should take usability lessons from Jacob Nielson, I really don't think we have anything to learn from his design skills (controversial!!). I think I would agree, then, that we could use a better, more professional, more image-conscious logo, because FSFE at the end of the day is about two things: supporting Free software, and promoting it. Promotion is almost as important as support.
Is Gnu + stars incompatible with a good, professional image? I think so, although there is a compromise. It _is_ possible to change the logo later - in five, six, seven years' time. We can take GNU + stars now, and change later, when we're in a better position to do a good job, and when FSFE is in a strong enough position to hold it's own. The opportunity cost is that changing a logo is not necessarily desirable, and might cost money.
I think it boils down to two points of view:
1. FSFE is not strong enough to hold it's own identity right now, and the GNU + stars combination will speak volumes about the organisation. GNU + stars is the best logo, at least for now.
OR
2. FSFE needs a professional image, right from the get go, and we need to promote ourselves such that our new logo becomes as synonymous with FSFE as the GNU is with the FSF. We don't want to change later, let's get it right now.
I think I'm in the (1) camp, but I can see both sides - I personally _really_ liked the abstract GNU + Europa line drawing we had a while ago (the one which I thought had demonic eyes :)), and much, much prefer that to GNU + stars. I think it kind of boils down to whether or not we think the FSFE can be strong enough to be a new organisation and promote itself ruthlessly (!) enough so that it doesn't need the strength of the FSF brand. Perhaps this is the debate?
Cheers,
Alex.
Hello again!
In mircoles 21 de Marzo de 2001 at 10:25, home@alexhudson.com wrote to FSFE-Discussion:
- FSFE is not strong enough to hold it's own identity right now, and
the GNU + stars combination will speak volumes about the organisation. GNU + stars is the best logo, at least for now. OR 2. FSFE needs a professional image, right from the get go, and we need to promote ourselves such that our new logo becomes as synonymous with FSFE as the GNU is with the FSF. We don't want to change later, let's get it right now.
Having to choose, I think that the one with the best long-run should do better, so I'll choose the second one.
I know FSF Europe hasn't right now much power (look at me, I just readed in an spanish email-mag what was happening!) but I think it's a matter of time and not of Logo. FSF Europe will get more recognized and supported not by it's logo, but by THE WORK its formers will do (specially inside the Free Software community). And a well designed logo will help promote the Free Software soul outside its "environment", what I think would be invaluable.
Anyway, I think that Gnu + stars should do very well, except for it's lack of good design (so some promotion problems will eventually come).
The most important thing is, that we put all our efforts in its promotion when it has been chosen. No logo is perfect, so there'll be problems to solve anyway. 8)
Regards,
Eneko Lacunza Enlar/RgB & SoS
... What is Linux? The control of your machine on your hands.
enlar@iname.com http://www.euskalnet.net/enlar
* "David Blane" david@pigstick.freeserve.co.uk | From a Scottish point of view, I must disassociate myself and the | majority of my compatriots from this sentiment. A hugely popular | view is that we're Scottish and European, and only then British. (I | get the impression that this, like most "prevailing climates" | perceived as British, actually represents a sample of some part of | London or its suburbs.)
I have absolutely no opinion on what the logo for the new FSF Europe organisation should be, but I will recommend the lecture "We are not against Europe. We are against Norwegian membership in the European Union" by Professor Emeritus Kristen Nygaard.
http://www.ifi.uio.no/~kristen/POLITIKKDOK_MAPPE/P_EU_Munchen_eng.html
Nygaard was the leader of the Norwegian People's Movement "Nei til EU" (No to EU) in 1994 and one of the two original designers of the Simula language [*] in the 1960s.
| However, the criteria for joining the superstate are very well defined, | politically and economically, and the FSFE should not appear to | endorse those conditions to the detriment of alternatives perhaps | favoured by non-EU European nations.
Well put.
-- Ole
[*] GNU Cim was written and maintained by Sverre Hvammen Johansen, who is also very outspoken against the European Union.
* On 21 Mar 2001, Ole Aamot wrote:
I have absolutely no opinion on what the logo for the new FSF Europe organisation should be, but I will recommend the lecture "We are not against Europe. We are against Norwegian membership in the European Union" by Professor Emeritus Kristen Nygaard.
The most people who are against the EU are nationalists, in Norway too?
Nygaard was the leader of the Norwegian People's Movement "Nei til EU" (No to EU) in 1994 and one of the two original designers of the Simula language [*] in the 1960s.
Norway will be member of the EU, someday. The TV network "Euronews" says about Switzerland, some years ago: "Switzerland needs Europe [EU], but Europe doesn't need Switzerland."
Thomas
P.S. I'm _not_ proud to be German or European.
Hello Rodger!
In martes 20 de Marzo de 2001 at 16:46, Rodger Etz-Brown wrote to Pim van Riezen:
Though this point being off-topic it leads to my point about the UK and the prevailing anti-European climate. A country that has got a civil war and two other parts trying to be independent as well, it will not be easy to convince them of just another artificial construct.
Well, I don't think so, not at least everywhere. Here in the Basque Country (Spain) we have some serious problem with terrorism and independentists. But, any elaborated independence plan includes being part of the current and future European Union. (sort of it is a desirable and unavoidable future).
Regards,
Eneko Lacunza Enlar/RgB & SoS
... My machine doesn't boot up; it just LILOs.
enlar@iname.com http://www.euskalnet.net/enlar
David Westlund daw@wlug.westbo.se schrieb/wrote:
The flag it not the best symbol for Europe.
Yes, we already had this discussion. However, so far no one came up with a better suggestion IMO.
Unfortunately, Europa (the women) is not easily recognized. She just looks like every woman.
The flame needs an explanation too.
The idea with the map, is new to me, however. This might be a good idea.
On the other hand, I'm not sure whether the FSF should support the Europhobia of some people.
Claus
The flame needs an explanation too.
The idea with the map, is new to me, however. This might be a good idea.
On the other hand, I'm not sure whether the FSF should support the Europhobia of some people.
I have no particular feelings on the logo subject, but I see it taking quite some time...