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This is a compilation of my reply to the initial request for feedback, the reply of Matthias Kirschner, and my reply to that reply. I was requested to mail it to the discussion list so I shall do so.
############# Initial reply (me) ####################
1 = very low importance, 10 = very high
Blog = 6, Calender = 5, E-mail alias = 2, Instant messaging (jabber) = 7, Mailing lists = 1, Wiki = 8, Forum = 10
- Which features should the tools provide?
The wiki should be one with a sane syntax - MediaWiki or MoinMoin etc
- Are there other tools you would like to have?
Users should have the choice between forums and the mailing list. Whilst I have used mailing lists when I absolutely needed to in the past (and usenet), I find them obnoxious and very unpleasant to use. Additionally, following a particular line of discussion is a nuisance. I fully support the *choice* of using a mailing list but the lack of a forum leaves me feeling 'out in the cold' w.r.t the fsfe. It's probably not meant in this way, but I always feel unwelcome around mailing-list-only groups/projects, as if, since I am not elite enough to use them, I should just get lost or something.
I would use the ubuntuforums.org site as an example of a place where I feel much more welcome. With just one person feeling like this it could be seen as a minor issue, but perhaps other people will send in with a similar sentiment, so I send this just in case.
Please send your suggestions to discussion@lists.fsfe.org and participate in the discussion.
I find it very hard to participate in discussions on mailing lists - I like a 'zoomed-out picture' which lists cannot give me.
############# Reply of Matthias Kirschner ################
Hello Matthew,
can you resend that e-mail to discussion@lists.fsfe.org? Or can I forward it, so other Fellows can read it, too?
And one question, because I do not understand it:
* mk00020 <xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> [2007-10-10 23:43:52 +0100]:
Please send your suggestions to discussion@lists.fsfe.org and participate in the discussion.
I find it very hard to participate in discussions on mailing lists - I like a 'zoomed-out picture' which lists cannot give me.
What do you mean with zoomed-out picture? I thought about something like the thread view in mail clients http://gushue.net/mutt/mutt02.png or http://home.arcor.de/david-peters/TB.png (random images from threaded views), but as you write mailinglists cannot give it to you this seems to be wrong. Can you explain it to me, or explain it to the e-mail to the list?
######### New reply to try to explain/extrapolate ###########
My apologies for that last sentence, it is hard to understand.
The nested-view is undoubtedly better than a purely linear format, and my mail client (claws-mail) does support such a view.
However, when using a nested view like that I still feel as if I have to view a particular thread through a 'letterbox' rather than being able to see the whole thread laid out. I strongly dislike the comment system on /. for a similar reason. Rather than seeing the whole conversation laid out I feel that I see little 'snapshots' that make it harder for me to follow what is going on.
Other issues that affect me (not everyone) wrt. mailing lists: * I find things much easier to read in IceWeasel than in claws-mail (partly my fault, admittedly). * It is much easier to slip up and get spammed to hell when using a mailing list (better on some lists than others). * I use IMAP and don't like storing large numbers of mails. * Poor formatting - eg no [quote], [code], [url] etc * No avatars - I am very bad with names, avatars help me identify people. * Steeper learning curve (though I have known how to use them for a while now - I think). * The archive view is awkward - if you open a thread and view the whole thing you have to click the back button lots to get back to where you where (forums only need one back button press to get out).
* Partly for the above reason I see mailing lists as largely dynamic, with a poor function as a store of knowledge, whereas forums are, to me, both dynamic and function as a good knowledge store (with the right software - eg a free clone of vBulletin 3.6.8 or simmilar) (whenever I get stuck using Ubuntu the forum search is the first place I look).
I am dyslexic (and somewhat weird) so that may possibly explain it - though I really have no idea.
Regards, Matthew
On 11-Oct-2007, allergic-to-spam@karlsen.me.uk wrote:
- Are there other tools you would like to have?
Users should have the choice between forums and the mailing list. Whilst I have used mailing lists when I absolutely needed to in the past (and usenet), I find them obnoxious and very unpleasant to use.
You give a lot of detail in your message exploring why you find mailing lists unwelcoming, and I thank you for it.
My main observation is that pretty much all the complaints you have are to do with *user interface*: entirely valid, but IMO not something the FSFE should spend much of its scarce resources on.
I think your complaints are far better addressed by providing messages via a standard network protocol — a mailing list or an NNTP forum — and allowing the user the choice of what *program* to use to interact with it. The FSFE shouldn't be expected to be, or employ, experts on user interface design for what is essentially a solved problem.
That way, the conversation isn't balkanised between "those who use mailing lists" and "those who use the web forums"; instead, everyone is using the same communication channel, but the end-point is selected by the individual to match their needs.
I, for one, have exactly the mirror reaction to yours: I find email and NNTP far more inclusive, because I already know how to use the software that interacts with it. If I need a different presentation of the messages, organised in custom ways as you suggest, I can choose software that does so without getting the service provider involved in that process at all.
With a web forum, on the other hand, I have to suffer with whatever lame interface the webmaster chooses and learn a different interface for every different site, and hassle the provider not only for the delivery of messages but also the detailed interaction with them. Instead, of course, I throw my hands up at the effort involved and don't participate at all.
If the forum is, instead, accessible in all its features by a standard protocol with software I *already* know how to use, but isn't necessarily the *same* software everyone else uses, none of use are forced to learn each other's crazy preferences.
On Friday 12 October 2007 01:51:08 Ben Finney wrote:
On 11-Oct-2007, allergic-to-spam@karlsen.me.uk wrote:
- Are there other tools you would like to have?
Users should have the choice between forums and the mailing list. Whilst I have used mailing lists when I absolutely needed to in the past (and usenet), I find them obnoxious and very unpleasant to use.
You give a lot of detail in your message exploring why you find mailing lists unwelcoming, and I thank you for it.
My main observation is that pretty much all the complaints you have are to do with *user interface*: entirely valid, but IMO not something the FSFE should spend much of its scarce resources on.
Especially since it's already been done! Have a look at http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.org.fsf.europe.discussion -- it provides an NNTP interface to the mailing list, RSS feeds and two web interfaces: one with frames and threads, another with a flat blog-like interface.
Personally, I use the mailing list, but I'm subscribe to the Gmane NNTP interface for many more lists that I only check infrequently. A forum would hardly ever be checked, it's too much effort.
- mk00020 <xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> [2007-10-10 23:43:52 +0100]:
Please send your suggestions to discussion@lists.fsfe.org and participate in the discussion.
I find it very hard to participate in discussions on mailing lists - I like a 'zoomed-out picture' which lists cannot give me.
What do you mean with zoomed-out picture? I thought about something like the thread view in mail clients http://gushue.net/mutt/mutt02.png or http://home.arcor.de/david-peters/TB.png (random images from threaded views), but as you write mailinglists cannot give it to you this seems to be wrong. Can you explain it to me, or explain it to the e-mail to the list?
How about something like Zest [1], which tries to capture the discussion? Such an interface is particularly useful when people fail to change the subject line.
Neal
Hi all,
* allergic-to-spam@karlsen.me.uk allergic-to-spam@karlsen.me.uk [2007-10-11 16:50:41 +0100]:
This is a compilation of my reply to the initial request for feedback, the reply of Matthias Kirschner, and my reply to that reply. I was requested to mail it to the discussion list so I shall do so.
this should have gone to discussion@lists.fsfe.org (Fellow internal mailinglist) as feedback to questions we asked the Fellows.
Best wishes, Matthias