Discussion July 2001

discussion@lists.fsfe.org

74 participants
138 discussions

Is proprietary software a valid option?
by Lutz Horn 28 Jul '01

28 Jul '01

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dear folks at LWN, Thanks for publishing my letter regarding your coverage of the Caldera licensing scheme. To this you added the honour of quoting it as an example for an opinion 'common among certain types of free software advocates' in your july, 26th Main Page. Since you take some trouble of argueing against something you claim can be found in my statement, let me respond to your editorial. There are some points in your article that need to be addressed. 1) You start of by asking 'Is it immoral to use proprietary software?'. Of course, I never asked this question in my original letter. You, too, are aware of this, since only three paragraphes later you rephrase the question to 'Is it truly "no valid option"', using my words. Let me point out that I'm not talking about morals. I restricted myself in talking about valid or invalid options which is a completely different issue. Since, as far as I can see, inside the Free Software community there is no generally agreed idea about what is morally right or wrong in everyday live, said community focuses on one goal: Free Software and ways to further it, increase it's use, etc. Everything that is said and done about Free Software has to be judged under consideration of this goal. If something does or doesn't further this goal, it's not moral or immoral but a valid or invalid option. 2) Regarding the use of proprietary software, you ask 'What, exactly, is the harm in doing so'. The infliction of actual harm is only one thing why using proprietary software is no valid option. It is no valid option since proprietary software keeps people from helping each other, from learning while using software, and generally keeps them in a state of dependence. There may be no actual harm done from this but it sure is against the spirit of Free Software. 3) After restricting yourself to the actual harm done by the use of proprietary software you cosider the 'biggest fear' which you detect in proprietary software 'block[ing] the development of a free package'. Of course this is a major problem but the arguments you present to calm the fear down are worth considering. I agree with you that there is no need to discuss this issue. There are, of course, different problems in the use of proprietary software which do actual harm to Free Software even though no developer is discouraged from developing Free Software. If there is no Free alternative to some proprietary tool the use of this tool does strengthen it. By increasing the user base of proprietary software users make it more difficult for late coming Free Software to get a food in the door. We all know that switching tools is an undertaking not readliy done. Or is there some other reaseon why people are still using the proprietary Netscape browsers even though Mozilla is Free and ready to use? 4) You appease the users of proprietary software by saying that they need not 'feel an outsider just because the programs they need to get their work done now are not available under a free license.' In this you assume that they are being thrown out of the community by the 'Church of the FSF'. I don't think this is the case. Being a member of the Free Software community is not a question of conforming to some church rules. But of course if somebody considers himself a member of the Free Software community he has to ask himself where his priorities lie. Do they lie in getting 'their work done' or in working for Free Software. If they lie in the first, the use of proprietary software may be a valid option. If they lie in the second, it is not. Regards Lutz Horn - -- Lutz Horn <lh(a)lutz-horn.de> For PGP information see header. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7YvpPzQ+com69o1kRAvNXAJ9slnohfn1aSX7fHnmvthHdbtRNOwCfXQ+u Xfnmml7UEPXLtdsfm1HEYos= =WMH4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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pushing the fs/oss movement
by Joerg Schilling 28 Jul '01

28 Jul '01

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Re: BerliOS <-> FSFE relations (was: questionary - who developes FS/OSS)
by Joerg Schilling 28 Jul '01

28 Jul '01

>From: Bernhard Reiter <bernhard(a)intevation.de> >[ Missunderstanding one ] >> >> Right! At the moment we call "GMB Informationstechnik e.V. & Co. KG." > ^^^ >> >> Nevertheless, we remain a non-profit organisation and we are not part = >of >> >> Fraunhofer! >> >>=3D20 >> >> The change to the new name has become valid with 20.7.2001 with a publ= >ish=3D >> >ing >> >> in "Bonner Generalanzeiger" (Page 20). As I am replying to a mail from >> >> you send at 16.7.2001, you see, that your statements are wrong. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Read this..... if you really like, you will find it in a library. >Got thrown off by your typo and the rest of the paragraph (see above) >and somehow believed that BerliOS might be seperated from GMD=20 >and had a new name. It is funny, you seem to be able to look into the future ;-) Yesterday - one day after yor mail - it turned out that it _really_ was a typo from the Register court in Bonn! >Just tried to rephrase what I have understood. >Can you clarify the legal situation of the GMD then?=20 >I obviously did not understand it. After correction of the typo by the register court in Bonn we currently are "GMD Informationstechnik e.V. & Co. KG." Unfortunately we cannot prevent the final step towards FhG in the near future. But I see no relation between this fact and the previous discussion! You should judge People by what they are doing and not from what organization they are in - espacially when people are being forced to be in a specific organisation le we will be. So please judge BerliOS from what we are doing! Mr. Gorbatschow was a member of the commist party but is reponsible for freeing Russia. On the other side, when I look at this discussion, there are people who may be members of FSFE but do things that harm the free-software/open-source movement. I hope we can have an unbiased and open discussion in the future.... Jörg EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js(a)cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1 schilling(a)fokus.gmd.de (work) chars I am J"org Schilling URL: http://www.fokus.gmd.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix

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GNU books - potential money source for the FSFE?
by Reinhard Mueller 26 Jul '01

26 Jul '01

Hi, just an idea: The FSF sells books and CD's; there was an Europan distributor (but AFAIK that's history) and I could imagine that reselling GNU books/CD's in Europe could be a chance for the FSFE to get some money. Maybe there are even other physical things the FSFE could provide for money (there were the T-shirts on the LinuxTag, but I don't think there was much financial gain from that). Any ideas? Thanks, -- Reinhard Mueller GNU Enterprise project http://www.gnue.org

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Re: questionary - who developes FS/OSS
by Joerg Schilling 26 Jul '01

26 Jul '01

>From: Bernhard Reiter <bernhard(a)intevation.de> >> 1) Don't trust Press releases that are set up by enemies (FhG in this cas= >e) >> I don't want to go into details, but from a legal point of view >> GMD is not jet FhG! >The webpages of GMD have different information: > http://www.gmd.de/de/presse-archiv/pressekonferenz.html > | Nun sind auch alle juristischen Schritte zur Integration > | der GMD in die Fraunhofer-Gesellschaft vollzogen. Did you ever listen to the radio station of an occupied country? >> Right! At the moment we call "GMB Informationstechnik e.V. & Co. KG." >> Nevertheless, we remain a non-profit organisation and we are not part of >> Fraunhofer! >>=20 >> The change to the new name has become valid with 20.7.2001 with a publish= >ing >> in "Bonner Generalanzeiger" (Page 20). As I am replying to a mail from >> you send at 16.7.2001, you see, that your statements are wrong. >Okay, the Berlios is now (since 6 days) not part of Frauenhofer anymore >according to your information. >This seems to be a good step. I said that GMD is not yet Fraunhofer, you say that GMD is no more Fraunhofer. You seem to know more then I know! As I am the president of the works-council of GMD-Berlin and constantly fighting during the last two years against this senseless forced fusion this is curious.... But hey! If you really know more than I do, why then didn't you help us to support this fight against the FhG GMD fusion? >> >>> Nobody in the (German) community trusts BERLIOS, probably due to a gut >> >>> feelings. >>=20 >> >At least all the folks I know and that are quite some. >>=20 >> So I give you the advice to find better friends. People who make statemen= >ts >> like this are no help for the movement. >Thanks for downgrading all people that Werner=20 >(Vice-President of the FSFE Chapter Germany, in the board of GUUG,=20 >main architect of GnuPG) knows in Germany which are involved in Free Softwa= >re. >As I am also one of these persons I can reassure you that >a statements like the one above can be perceived as "unfair accusations". Did I mention your name? Did Werner mention your name? I am sure that not! >There are several other reasons why is distrust of BerliOS >in the Free Software community in Germany. >We (the FSFE) did not create it. We merely point it out to you. To avoid future confusion like in the paragraph above: Are you speaking as Vice President of FSFE or are you speaking as Bernhard Reiter? I don't like to confuse personal statements with official statements from organisations.... and I am sure that the existence of FSFE gives positive impulses to the free-software/open-source community in Europe! ... Does this mean that you personally have problems when people are fighting for free-software/open-source? ... or is it simply that some animals are more equal than others? I am a bit confused now.... We had a very positive talk at CeBIT this year and you told us that we should co-operate. You pointed out, that BerliOS gives a positive impulse to the free-software/open-source community. It seems that something happened during the last few months. As you told us that FSFE would support BerliOS why didn't you contact us meanwhile? If there really are problems, we already could have done something against these problems. >Free Software developers usually have a sixth sense for some >of the mistakes BerliOS is making. So it seems that you personally feel with your sixt sense that there are misterious mistakes. Please tell us more about these misterious mistakes! Jörg EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js(a)cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1 schilling(a)fokus.gmd.de (work) chars I am J"org Schilling URL: http://www.fokus.gmd.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix

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Re: questionary - who developes FS/OSS
by schilling＠fokus.gmd.de 26 Jul '01

26 Jul '01

>From wk(a)gnupg.org Thu Jul 26 19:06:14 2001 >On Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:18:08 +0200 (MEST), schilling said: >> - The most important one: GMD !=3D Fraunhofer - Full Stop! >What about http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/lab-23.07.01-004/ : > Fusion von GMD und Fraunhofer endg=FCltig vollzogen > Die zun=E4chst umstrittene Verschmelzung der GMD mit der Fraunhofer > Gesellschaft ist jetzt rechtlich abgeschlossen. "Alle Rechte und > Pflichten der fr=FCheren GMD sind auf die Fraunhofer Gesellschaft als > Rechtsnachfolgerin =FCbergegangen", hei=DFt es in einer > Mitteilung. Nachdem die GMD zun=E4chst in eine Kommanditgesellschaft > umgewandelt worden war, =FCbernahm Fraunhofer s=E4mtliche Anteile. >[Fusion of GMD and Fraunhofer finally settled. Fraunhofer has > entirely taken over the former GMD] 1) Don't trust Press releases that are set up by enemies (FhG in this case) I don't want to go into details, but from a legal point of view GMD is not jet FhG! 2) This is a discussion triggered by a WIDI poll some days ago. If you like to have a fair discussion, you should rather check the legal state for this date. >> Just a note: GMD is a non-profit organisation (approved by the German tax= > office) >There is no GMD anymore. Right! At the moment we call "GMB Informationstechnik e.V. & Co. KG." Nevertheless, we remain a non-profit organisation and we are not part of Fraunhofer! The change to the new name has become valid with 20.7.2001 with a publishing in "Bonner Generalanzeiger" (Page 20). As I am replying to a mail from you send at 16.7.2001, you see, that your statements are wrong. >>> Nobody in the (German) community trusts BERLIOS, probably due to a gut >>> feelings. >At least all the folks I know and that are quite some. So I give you the advice to find better friends. People who make statements like this are no help for the movement. >>> One of the responsible persons there is attacking the GNU project >>> everytime you mention the words GNU, EMACS or RMS, with total clueless >>> and unfair accusations. >> It is hard to respond to such fuzzy and indefinite statements, but I may >> give you my toughts: >J=F6rg, I didn't want to publish your name because we had a private >conversation. I could try to write up a memory protocol about this >but your statements are too ridiculous to spend any more time on them. If you like to show that you made ridiculous statements in this discussion, feel free to write your memo, but I believe we should rather not start to fight on personal affairs. Jörg EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js(a)cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1 schilling(a)fokus.gmd.de (work) chars I am J"org Schilling URL: http://www.fokus.gmd.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix

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Re: FSFE Finance
by João Miguel Neves 26 Jul '01

26 Jul '01

On 24 Jul 2001 17:15:54 +0200, Anders Lindback wrote: > Usually one then hold a yearly general assembly where all members can be present > and where they have their chance to vote. In a larger organisation this > is not the members themselves but representatives of the members who are > alected in an local assembly. In FSFE the chapters would elect representatives > which would then go on to the european assembly. > > The most common in an elcttion is to let the board remain in place. Actually > I've never been at an assembly where it's not be know beforehand who > will be elected. Usueallay they have a election committy who gives one candidate > to each position thus limiting the choice to pre-screened candidates who > has no oposition. > I've also noticed that you've never watched a "hostile takeover" in this kind of organization. I've not been so fortunate. The technique is simple, you get a lot of your "friends" to join the organization and then get democratically ellected to the board of the organizations. If you think that's difficult to do in an organization like the FSFE, just imagine the following: It's standard for a company to pay employees' assotiations dues. Imagine company X (or a big multinational company or a group of companies who have money to loose from Free Software's presence in the market) making all its employees members of FSFE. Then the company X would, helpfully, offer a place for the next assembly, and, coincidently, have a meeting with all their employees at the same place a few hours before (and maybe even later with the assembly in the middle). Imagine that company X put one of their directors in from of a team of candidates to the board and that all company's employees voted on him. Tell me how do you protect yourself from this scenario? Every protection I've thought about I've also found either a easy work-around or that it made joining so difficult that it would never any member. This was the kind of protective measure FSF and FSFE decided to take. -- Joao Miguel Neves

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Re: FSFE Finance
by joack＠gmx.net 26 Jul '01

26 Jul '01

Hi, yesterday, I think, Georg asked for ideas to deal with sponsors, private and coorporations. I'd like to propose a historic example (not quite accurate, maybe) that might even appease Anders. The examaple is that of the _early_ Royal Society. They were in a similar siotuation as the fsfe now but already overrun by the "wrong" people (OpenSource in our case, I guess). So they came up with the following system: _ a patron. The King in their case; sponsors here, _ assosiated members; paying a regular fee., _ contributing members; (obvious, I guess) and, later on even _ honorary members. None of the above had any hand in the handling of policies, no right to vote. But the could call themselves Members R.S. Lastly the nominated members, we already have those! I think that might work and it might even draw the comunity closer to the fsfe Greets Joachim AD UTRUMQUE PARATAS Marc Aurel

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Re: questionary - who developes FS/OSS
by schilling＠fokus.gmd.de 26 Jul '01

26 Jul '01

>From Werner Koch wk(a)gnupg.org >12 Jul 2001 08:33:41 +0200 >On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 00:06:06 +0200, Alessandro Rubini said: >> Maybe I'm suspicious by nature, but why should we spend our time to >> send personal information to those people? Who are they? What is >> their aim in this move? >They are founded by the German Ministry of Economics (a different >department than the one which gave the GnuPG grants) and are run by >the GMD and Fraunhofer (those with the MP3 patents). If you are interested in a fair discussion, it would help a lot to stay with the truth and not to use unfair and clueless statements that may easily be prooved to be wrong: - The most important one: GMD != Fraunhofer - Full Stop! - the words above my statements associate that BerliOS is pro software patents which is definitely not true. I would like to give an example and add a pointer to a paper that I wrote for a debate on sw patents in the German parliament some weeks ago: http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/glone/employees/joerg.schilling/private… ... of course, this is in German ... Just a note: GMD is a non-profit organisation (approved by the German tax office) >Nobody in the (German) community trusts BERLIOS, probably due to a gut >feelings. After knowing the background for the first paragraph, it is hard to believe that this sentence is more than your personal statement. BerliOS currently has 132 registered pojects. If you take into account that BerliOS is competing with the people from Sourceforge who (in contrary to BerliOS) have a commercial background, you see that BerliOS is accepted by a reasonable number of developers. Of course, we need to make BerliOS more popular in the future. >One of the responsible persons there is attacking the GNU project >everytime you mention the words GNU, EMACS or RMS, with total clueless >and unfair accusations. It is hard to respond to such fuzzy and indefinite statements, but I may give you my toughts: A possible reason why somebody may believe that the GNU project is attacked with clueless accusations may be the fact that the person who believes in observing accusations is missing the needed background knowledge in Open Standards and historical facts on free software. Missinterpreting free speech of other persons because of missing background knowledge is a frequent reason for developing prejudices. Jörg EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin js(a)cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1 schilling(a)fokus.gmd.de (work) chars I am J"org Schilling URL: http://www.fokus.gmd.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix

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Free / open source software expert evaluators are needed
by Jan-Oliver Wagner 26 Jul '01

26 Jul '01

I just received this email requesting European experts on Free Software. Thought I should forward it to the fsfe mailing list :-) Jan -- Jan-Oliver Wagner http://intevation.de/~jan/ Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ FreeGIS http://freegis.org/

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Discussion July 2001