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Hello Web-Hackers and Designer,
yesterday I commited the Turkish translation of "Get involved" [1] on documentfreedom.org.
As it seems the font used for headlines, Yanone Kaffeesatz [2], is not capable of displaying "G" with breve (ğ) and "S" with cedilla (ş).
To my eyes this looks extremely ugly because the individual characters are just replaced with a standard sans-serif font.
Perhaps it is a good idea to consider using a new font when the site is being redesigned for the 2013 DFD? I can recommend Linux Biolinum [3], part of the Linux Libertine font family.
Do you have any thoughts, comments or suggestions on this matter?
Regards,
Phil
[1] http://documentfreedom.org/getinvolved.tr.html [2] http://www.yanone.de/typedesign/kaffeesatz/ [3] http://www.linuxlibertine.org/
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If I'm not mistaken the source of Yanone Kaffeesatz is available and licensed under OFL so can just install fontforge, add the features and keep using the font. Should be relatively easy espacially if you just need to copy a spcial outline from one character to another.
Robert
On 26/11/12 15:33, Philipp Kammerer wrote:
Hello Web-Hackers and Designer,
yesterday I commited the Turkish translation of "Get involved" [1] on documentfreedom.org.
As it seems the font used for headlines, Yanone Kaffeesatz [2], is not capable of displaying "G" with breve (ğ) and "S" with cedilla (ş).
To my eyes this looks extremely ugly because the individual characters are just replaced with a standard sans-serif font.
Perhaps it is a good idea to consider using a new font when the site is being redesigned for the 2013 DFD? I can recommend Linux Biolinum [3], part of the Linux Libertine font
family.
Do you have any thoughts, comments or suggestions on this matter?
Regards,
Phil
[1] http://documentfreedom.org/getinvolved.tr.html [2] http://www.yanone.de/typedesign/kaffeesatz/ [3] http://www.linuxlibertine.org/ _______________________________________________ Designers mailing list Designers@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/designers
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Hi Robert
Robert Martinez notierte:
just install fontforge, add the features and keep using the font. copy a spcial outline from one character to another.
There is a c with cedilla which could be copied to the s. But I couldn't find any breve. This should be done by somebody who knows how to handle and create fonts.
I know enough about typography to not to dare to touch a font in such a way. I presume it's easier to just use another font. This only involves adding the font file to the repository and change the .css stylesheets.
If anybody is around who can add these glyphs in a manner so the font doesn't break it would be very nice since the contributions can actually find their way back to the original creator of Kaffeesatz.
Regards,
Phil
Since it only needs a few new combinations of already drawn glyphs I could give it a try. (Please send me a list of all the missing glyphs. Maybe I am able to add these accordingly without causing kerning problems.)
But Biolinum seems to be a great font. Therefore I see no reason to dismiss this option as well...
Best Franz
On Mon, 2012-11-26 at 16:20 +0100, Philipp Kammerer wrote:
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Hi Robert
Robert Martinez notierte:
just install fontforge, add the features and keep using the font. copy a spcial outline from one character to another.
There is a c with cedilla which could be copied to the s. But I couldn't find any breve. This should be done by somebody who knows how to handle and create fonts.
I know enough about typography to not to dare to touch a font in such a way. I presume it's easier to just use another font. This only involves adding the font file to the repository and change the .css stylesheets.
If anybody is around who can add these glyphs in a manner so the font doesn't break it would be very nice since the contributions can actually find their way back to the original creator of Kaffeesatz.
Regards,
Phil -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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On Monday 26 Nov 2012 17:53:29 Franz Gratzer wrote:
Since it only needs a few new combinations of already drawn glyphs I could give it a try.
Great thanks! Everyone: please list the problematic characters.
Best,
Sam.
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Hello Designer, Franz,
Franz Gratzer notierte:
Please send me a list of all the missing glyphs.
So far I know of the following missing characters:
"G" with breve (ğ), U+011E, U+011F "S" with cedilla (ş), U+015E, U+015F "I" with dot above (İ), U+0130 "i" dotless (ı), U+0131
I try to consult some of my Turkish speaking aquaintances about more.
Is this list helpful or do you need additional information?
Regards,
Phil
If this list is complete, this list should be sufficient.
But be aware, that it's just a try. I can't promise success.
Keep the fingers crossed! ;)
Best, Franz
On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 12:46 +0100, Philipp Kammerer wrote:
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Hello Designer, Franz,
Franz Gratzer notierte:
Please send me a list of all the missing glyphs.
So far I know of the following missing characters:
"G" with breve (ğ), U+011E, U+011F "S" with cedilla (ş), U+015E, U+015F "I" with dot above (İ), U+0130 "i" dotless (ı), U+0131
I try to consult some of my Turkish speaking aquaintances about more.
Is this list helpful or do you need additional information?
Regards,
Phil -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iEYEARECAAYFAlC8kR0ACgkQc7dt7OAI1bCJOACgl0l99QddiZUe4E9MNUakUKGK yBsAmwZYyxqUkb9X+FzSgKPCsPgUuLnX =bziU -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hi collegues,
I did a first draft with the letters you asked me to add in Yanone Kaffesatz Bold. (File attached.)
Please let me know if it works for you.
It's not ready yet since I added just the few letters I was told to. For a proper new version I should actually add all special chars for the needed languages. This could be quite a bit of work since I need to do upper and lower case letters in four cuts for each sign if we want to have the new chars in all available font variations for Yanone Kaffeesatz. And obviously the new characters should fit in in a way, that nobody can tell they were added later on.
So don't expect this to be done very fast in a proper way.
As well I'm not sure if it is a good idea to let the special characters overlap the formal maximum height. (Unfortunately I can't rely on any experience concerning this.)
I asked the original designer Jan Gerner if he supports our plan to add new chars to his font face. And he told me to be glad, that we didn't ask him to do it. (Others before expected him to do all adaptations they wanted to have.)
Best Franz
On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 12:46 +0100, Philipp Kammerer wrote:
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Hello Designer, Franz,
Franz Gratzer notierte:
Please send me a list of all the missing glyphs.
So far I know of the following missing characters:
"G" with breve (ğ), U+011E, U+011F "S" with cedilla (ş), U+015E, U+015F "I" with dot above (İ), U+0130 "i" dotless (ı), U+0131
I try to consult some of my Turkish speaking aquaintances about more.
Is this list helpful or do you need additional information?
Regards,
Phil -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iEYEARECAAYFAlC8kR0ACgkQc7dt7OAI1bCJOACgl0l99QddiZUe4E9MNUakUKGK yBsAmwZYyxqUkb9X+FzSgKPCsPgUuLnX =bziU -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
I'm in contact with Jan, the original designer of Kaffeesatz and he finally offered to add all additionally necessary characters himself, if we send him a list with all needed characters.
He wants to implement it into the original font and is working with a master file which is incompatible with free tools in some aspects. So he wasn't really happy with the thought, that I would make a new version starting with an exported OTF-file of his font face.
In his opinion it's a bad decision to start from an OTF-font because it is a limited export file lacking valuable data necessary for generating TTF-files from the same font master...
So it would be great if we could gather a reliable list of all needed additional characters in order to enable him to extend support for those languages in Kaffeesatz.
Anyone volunteering for that task? I at least would need a list of the languages we want. Starting from that we could generate this list by searching what special chars those languages use and leaving out those which are in the font already...
Best Franz
On Wed, 2012-12-05 at 21:30 +0100, Franz Gratzer wrote:
Hi collegues,
I did a first draft with the letters you asked me to add in Yanone Kaffesatz Bold. (File attached.)
Please let me know if it works for you.
It's not ready yet since I added just the few letters I was told to. For a proper new version I should actually add all special chars for the needed languages. This could be quite a bit of work since I need to do upper and lower case letters in four cuts for each sign if we want to have the new chars in all available font variations for Yanone Kaffeesatz. And obviously the new characters should fit in in a way, that nobody can tell they were added later on.
So don't expect this to be done very fast in a proper way.
As well I'm not sure if it is a good idea to let the special characters overlap the formal maximum height. (Unfortunately I can't rely on any experience concerning this.)
I asked the original designer Jan Gerner if he supports our plan to add new chars to his font face. And he told me to be glad, that we didn't ask him to do it. (Others before expected him to do all adaptations they wanted to have.)
Best Franz
On Mon, 2012-12-03 at 12:46 +0100, Philipp Kammerer wrote:
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Hello Designer, Franz,
Franz Gratzer notierte:
Please send me a list of all the missing glyphs.
So far I know of the following missing characters:
"G" with breve (ğ), U+011E, U+011F "S" with cedilla (ş), U+015E, U+015F "I" with dot above (İ), U+0130 "i" dotless (ı), U+0131
I try to consult some of my Turkish speaking aquaintances about more.
Is this list helpful or do you need additional information?
Regards,
Phil -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iEYEARECAAYFAlC8kR0ACgkQc7dt7OAI1bCJOACgl0l99QddiZUe4E9MNUakUKGK yBsAmwZYyxqUkb9X+FzSgKPCsPgUuLnX =bziU -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Designers mailing list Designers@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/designers
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Hello Franz, designers@
Franz Gratzer notierte:
I at least would need a list of the languages we want.
Well; to maximize backwards compatibility, lets add all of them.
At least the ones from within Europe. Hard to say how fast Europe will expand (or collapse). But this would mean: Apart from the regular ones: Greek, Cyrillic, Nordic (Islandic, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, Finnish, Esti etc.), Turkish, Hungary, Slovenian, Bosnia (and the fast pacing, changing countries north of Greece).
I mean; that's quite a lot. Should we go for: let's add as many as we might need (which is quite a lot) or rather: Let's add only the ones we actually need right now. With the possible problem of being in need of adding another one later on.
puzzling,
Phil
Well; to maximize backwards compatibility, lets add all of them.
I think adding a few characters is no big deal for Jan, but doing complete character sets for Greek and Cyrillic is something completely different.
If we really want this to happen we should consider paying him for this work. He already made a new "professional" version of Kaffeesatz named Kava with support for many languages, but under a non free license.
For sure adding whole character sets in a proper way would need weeks of work. I don't think he is willing to do such a big amount of work for free - even if he supports our cause. So we won't get it if the FSFE isn't willing to invest money in that. I'm not even sure if he would do it for money. I'm under the impression he thinks, that his non-free fonts are more advanced and he doesn't really want to invest a lot of effort on Kaffeesatz any more because he sees it as an early step, which is not as good as his newer achievements.
He offered his help on the condition, that we do not want to change anything, but just adding some additional characters. The reason for that was basically, that he would prefer having one complete master source for exporting all available versions. Many font versions with different character sets in varying quality are for sure nothing anyone should want.
So if we really want to have Yanone Kaffeesatz in Greek and Cyrillic, I guess we need to find someone else to do this. I'm interested in designing fonts, but I'm just a beginner with limited time. Additionally I don't know Greek or Cyrillic. So I'm far from being the best person to find proper outlines of characters in "Kaffeesatz style" in those character sets. Beside that it would take me much more time than someone experienced like Jan.
Best Franz
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Hello Franz; designers@
Okay. I get your point. But I still find it hard to decide which glyphs we need. For now the turkish ones are most annoyingly apparent. But perhaps it would be wise to do some sort of survey among all the native speakers to see who misses glyphs in his/her language?
The FSFE could pay Jan to improve Kaffeesatz. But all the additions can be used for Kava as well. Or the other way around. When he's done the work for Kava, why does he need to reinvent the wheel with Kaffeesatz? So in actuality he's not really riding a dead horse here, now is he?
Well; I would certainly not want him to spend much time and effort to do something he doesn't really want to do for free. That would be horrible. It would be spectacular when there are like 10 people who would like to help him with Kava. Perhaps he wants to release it with a free license, so anyone can join in and work together.
Gosh; at the moment I can't really think about such things. I'm way to preoccupied. Can we delay this conversation to mid/end next week? And maybe we could do a XMPP/IRC brainstorming rather than spamming the mailinglist when nobody else wants to participate in the thought process.
Regards,
Phil
I don't know if nobody else is interested in our discussion, but for sure we can discuss this further of the list as well.
Kava is completely redrawn and has an additional weight. As far as I understood Jan is making money from selling his fonts. So I figure he might not want to release Kava for free.
He told me he is charging 150 Euros per hour. So I guess paying him for his time is no option. But for sure I can ask him if he has any suggestion how to proceed from here ...
Best Franz
On Sun, 2012-12-09 at 20:59 +0100, Philipp Kammerer wrote:
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Hello Franz; designers@
Okay. I get your point. But I still find it hard to decide which glyphs we need. For now the turkish ones are most annoyingly apparent. But perhaps it would be wise to do some sort of survey among all the native speakers to see who misses glyphs in his/her language?
The FSFE could pay Jan to improve Kaffeesatz. But all the additions can be used for Kava as well. Or the other way around. When he's done the work for Kava, why does he need to reinvent the wheel with Kaffeesatz? So in actuality he's not really riding a dead horse here, now is he?
Well; I would certainly not want him to spend much time and effort to do something he doesn't really want to do for free. That would be horrible. It would be spectacular when there are like 10 people who would like to help him with Kava. Perhaps he wants to release it with a free license, so anyone can join in and work together.
Gosh; at the moment I can't really think about such things. I'm way to preoccupied. Can we delay this conversation to mid/end next week? And maybe we could do a XMPP/IRC brainstorming rather than spamming the mailinglist when nobody else wants to participate in the thought process.
Regards,
Phil -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iEYEARECAAYFAlDE7ZsACgkQc7dt7OAI1bDwngCdFY5PW/no35qlQtVXmB3KyXkZ EjEAnAnBZVjgdHdQVRgH0h+ylg+MXNXp =6JZS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Designers mailing list Designers@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/designers
One final note on the situation with Kaffeesatz:
Jan, the designer of the font, made the offer to add the characters for all European languages for a fixed rate of about 1000 Euros. If the FSFE is willing to invest that amount of money, we can get a completely free Yanone Kaffeesatz with all necessary characters.
I don't know who can decide something like that. Please reply, if anyone feels able to answer this question!
If this funding is no option, Jan is willing to add all additional Latin characters for free, but this won't include Greek at all.
So if we want to use the same font in all countries, we have only two possibilities: Funding the adaptation of Kaffeesatz or switching to a completely different font.
What will it be?
Franz
On Sun, 2012-12-09 at 21:13 +0100, Franz Gratzer wrote:
I don't know if nobody else is interested in our discussion, but for sure we can discuss this further of the list as well.
Kava is completely redrawn and has an additional weight. As far as I understood Jan is making money from selling his fonts. So I figure he might not want to release Kava for free.
He told me he is charging 150 Euros per hour. So I guess paying him for his time is no option. But for sure I can ask him if he has any suggestion how to proceed from here ...
Best Franz
On Sun, 2012-12-09 at 20:59 +0100, Philipp Kammerer wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Hello Franz; designers@
Okay. I get your point. But I still find it hard to decide which glyphs we need. For now the turkish ones are most annoyingly apparent. But perhaps it would be wise to do some sort of survey among all the native speakers to see who misses glyphs in his/her language?
The FSFE could pay Jan to improve Kaffeesatz. But all the additions can be used for Kava as well. Or the other way around. When he's done the work for Kava, why does he need to reinvent the wheel with Kaffeesatz? So in actuality he's not really riding a dead horse here, now is he?
Well; I would certainly not want him to spend much time and effort to do something he doesn't really want to do for free. That would be horrible. It would be spectacular when there are like 10 people who would like to help him with Kava. Perhaps he wants to release it with a free license, so anyone can join in and work together.
Gosh; at the moment I can't really think about such things. I'm way to preoccupied. Can we delay this conversation to mid/end next week? And maybe we could do a XMPP/IRC brainstorming rather than spamming the mailinglist when nobody else wants to participate in the thought process.
Regards,
Phil -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iEYEARECAAYFAlDE7ZsACgkQc7dt7OAI1bDwngCdFY5PW/no35qlQtVXmB3KyXkZ EjEAnAnBZVjgdHdQVRgH0h+ylg+MXNXp =6JZS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Designers mailing list Designers@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/designers
Designers mailing list Designers@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/designers
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The question that comes to my mind is:
How bad do we need or want that specific font? It does not seem to be an official fefe-related font (like Nimbus L), it's not used on the logo, the homepage or even regularly on merchandise. While I completely support the use of corporate colors and fonts I somehow miss the relevance of Kaffeesatz to justify such an investment.
Maybe there are other great (or even better - I don't like Kaffeesatz for its legibility at small sizes and longer texts) free fonts to be used in its place?
As a side note: imho it is time to get rid of "Arial" on the homepage. :P
Robert
On 10/12/12 12:11, Franz Gratzer wrote:
One final note on the situation with Kaffeesatz:
Jan, the designer of the font, made the offer to add the characters for all European languages for a fixed rate of about 1000 Euros. If the FSFE is willing to invest that amount of money, we can get a completely free Yanone Kaffeesatz with all necessary characters.
I don't know who can decide something like that. Please reply, if anyone feels able to answer this question!
If this funding is no option, Jan is willing to add all additional Latin characters for free, but this won't include Greek at all.
So if we want to use the same font in all countries, we have only two possibilities: Funding the adaptation of Kaffeesatz or switching to a completely different font.
What will it be?
Franz
On Sun, 2012-12-09 at 21:13 +0100, Franz Gratzer wrote:
I don't know if nobody else is interested in our discussion, but for sure we can discuss this further of the list as well.
Kava is completely redrawn and has an additional weight. As far as I understood Jan is making money from selling his fonts. So I figure he might not want to release Kava for free.
He told me he is charging 150 Euros per hour. So I guess paying him for his time is no option. But for sure I can ask him if he has any suggestion how to proceed from here ...
Best Franz
On Sun, 2012-12-09 at 20:59 +0100, Philipp Kammerer wrote:
Hello Franz; designers@
Okay. I get your point. But I still find it hard to decide which glyphs we need. For now the turkish ones are most annoyingly apparent. But perhaps it would be wise to do some sort of survey among all the native speakers to see who misses glyphs in his/her language?
The FSFE could pay Jan to improve Kaffeesatz. But all the additions can be used for Kava as well. Or the other way around. When he's done the work for Kava, why does he need to reinvent the wheel with Kaffeesatz? So in actuality he's not really riding a dead horse here, now is he?
Well; I would certainly not want him to spend much time and effort to do something he doesn't really want to do for free. That would be horrible. It would be spectacular when there are like 10 people who would like to help him with Kava. Perhaps he wants to release it with a free license, so anyone can join in and work together.
Gosh; at the moment I can't really think about such things. I'm way to preoccupied. Can we delay this conversation to mid/end next week? And maybe we could do a XMPP/IRC brainstorming rather than spamming the mailinglist when nobody else wants to participate in the thought process.
Regards,
Phil
Designers mailing list Designers@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/designers
Designers mailing list Designers@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/designers
Designers mailing list Designers@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/designers
On Mon, 2012-12-10 at 12:38 +0100, Robert Martinez wrote:
How bad do we need or want that specific font?
As far as I know it's more about the problem, that we need to change all existing layouts if we want to have consistency with an other font. I don't know if we have printed materials already as well...
On 10/12/12 12:54, Franz Gratzer wrote:
On Mon, 2012-12-10 at 12:38 +0100, Robert Martinez wrote:
How bad do we need or want that specific font?
As far as I know it's more about the problem, that we need to change all existing layouts if we want to have consistency with an other font. I don't know if we have printed materials already as well...
The thing I wanted to point out is that even by using Kaffeesatz you don't have true consistency. Maybe in regard of the same material in other languages, but not in regard to the fsfe and *all* its materials.
Having a corporate font wouldn't only solve such issues in the future but also take the whole public apearance a step further in creating a more recognizable identity (next to the fresh colors and shapes found in the logo and styleguide).
* Franz Gratzer franz.gratzer@fsfe.org [2012-12-10 12:11:56 +0100]:
Jan, the designer of the font, made the offer to add the characters for all European languages for a fixed rate of about 1000 Euros. If the FSFE is willing to invest that amount of money, we can get a completely free Yanone Kaffeesatz with all necessary characters.
It is very unlikely that FSFE will pay 1000 EUR for a font. There are more urgent things, and it would not be good to pay so much money for a font in comparison with the budget of other campaigns.
FSFE is mainly an organisation, which depends on volunteers.
Regards, Matthias
On Mon, 2012-12-10 at 20:38 +0100, Matthias Kirschner wrote:
It is very unlikely that FSFE will pay 1000 EUR for a font.
Ok, so the FSFE doesn't invest in this font.
But what should we do now?
Should we accept having different fonts in different languages?
Should we switch to an other font and replace all layouts done until now?
Franz
* Franz Gratzer franz.gratzer@fsfe.org [2012-12-10 23:29:02 +0100]:
On Mon, 2012-12-10 at 20:38 +0100, Matthias Kirschner wrote:
It is very unlikely that FSFE will pay 1000 EUR for a font.
Ok, so the FSFE doesn't invest in this font.
One possibility is, that someone starts some crowdfounding for that. But FSFE staff cannot handle that at the moment.
But what should we do now?
Should we accept having different fonts in different languages?
Is this font used for all text on documentfreedom.org? or just the headline?
Should we switch to an other font and replace all layouts done until now?
This year Sam is in charge of DFD, so he would have to decide.
Regards, Matthias
On Tue, 2012-12-11 at 13:59 +0100, Matthias Kirschner wrote:
One possibility is, that someone starts some crowdfounding for that. But FSFE staff cannot handle that at the moment.
I understand. I guess that won't happen because it might not be that easy to get a punch of people willing to pay for that without a big network of at least potentially interested people.
Is this font used for all text on documentfreedom.org? or just the headline?
On the web side it's basically the headlines, but more work is done with Kaffeesatz in different media like banners and leaflets.
This year Sam is in charge of DFD, so he would have to decide.
Ok.
In order that Sam can proceed better with it when he works on Thursday:
* Franz Gratzer franz.gratzer@fsfe.org [2012-12-11 14:06:53 +0100]:
On Tue, 2012-12-11 at 13:59 +0100, Matthias Kirschner wrote:
One possibility is, that someone starts some crowdfounding for that. But FSFE staff cannot handle that at the moment.
I understand. I guess that won't happen because it might not be that easy to get a punch of people willing to pay for that without a big network of at least potentially interested people.
Ok.
Is this font used for all text on documentfreedom.org? or just the headline?
On the web side it's basically the headlines, but more work is done with Kaffeesatz in different media like banners and leaflets.
Ok, so all headlines. For the leaflets and banners: do you think we have the capacity to provide them all in the other languages?
Do you think it is an option to use another font for those languages?
Regards, Matthias