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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 01/18/2018 11:02 AM, Mirko Boehm
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:9CA363C7-A3CE-498B-A46B-8114D0C10F2F@fsfe.org">
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Hi,
<div class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 18. Jan 2018, at 10:45, Daniel Pocock <<a
href="mailto:daniel@pocock.pro" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">daniel@pocock.pro</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=""><span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular;
font-size: 11px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">The real questions:</span><br
style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">- can you trust a container
to be available in the future the same</span><br
style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">extent that you can trust a
package in a stable Linux distribution?</span><br
style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">- can you trust upstream
developers to ensure they never put anything</span><br
style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">non-free into their
container images or does somebody have time to</span><br
style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">verify the contents of
those images on every update?</span><br
style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<br style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">When you take something
from an official package, it has usually been</span><br
style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">looked at by a second set
of eyes already. If you cut that step out</span><br
style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class="">then how long is it before
non-free stuff creeps in?</span><br style="font-family:
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"
class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
<div>These are real questions. I don’t have any answers for
them. To me the issue of JS in web services is separate from
them, though.</div>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
As a developer, I'd like to chip in on this:<br>
<br>
1. There's no problem at all in web applications in JavaScript per
se. JavaScript is a powerful tool, it's standardized as Mirko said,
and of course JavaScript programs can give the four freedoms just as
well as every other programming language. Minified versions
(corresponding to compiled code) in deployments is also not a
problem, since if it's free software the source code will also be
available for whoever wants it.<br>
<br>
Indeed, JavaScript-based web applications are a perfect candidate
for the Affero GPL, and maybe they *should * be under the Affero GPL
as a standard recommendation.<br>
<br>
2. However, I find containers to be black magic. How can you trust
them to be 100% free software if you don't build them yourself? I
honestly don't know if Debian's packaging model is a perfect fit for
distributing JavaScript, which is, I suppose, why people have come
up with npm etc. in the first place. A non-broken NPM or a complete
bundling of source code in releases (i.e., pull in the sources of
all dependencies and be able to run the source version of all
packages in developer mode) would be preferrable. Plone, for
instance, tends to bundle its JavaScript itself and allows you to
unbundle and unminify everything when debugging.<br>
<br>
Best<br>
Carsten <br>
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